What else...Athletics...

<p>Rather than continue to hijack other threads, such as "Asians at Williams" and "What separates Williams from the other top LACs", I have taken the liberty of starting this thread to continue with the perennial , recurring theme of athletics at Williams and other schools.</p>

<p>Here is a recent post by EPHMAN:</p>

<p>Once again </p>

<hr>

<p>to debunk a few myths ... Yes, Williams has the most success of any liberal arts college in athletics, and that is no doubt part of the campus culture. But it also has the most success of any liberal arts college (outside of those with a conservatory or a specific arts focus) in the arts, when you look at combined campus level of activity and interest and alumni success in art history, studio art, dance, music, and theater. Same goes with science, as Williams has produced (outside of a place like Harvey Mudd or perhaps Swarthmore which has an engineering) the most or near the most successful math/science alums of any liberal arts school, measured by things like NSF grants, admission to top grad programs, and Apker awards for graduates over the last decade or so. So Williams' culture of success includes athletics, but is not single-mindedly focused on athletics as often portrayed by certain posters. Yet you don't see those who post here focusing on athletics say, beware, if you are interested in Williams, you better well had love a cappella music, theater and dance due to the prevalance and popularity for participation and attendance of those events on campus (and by the way, except for games against Amherst, NCAA games, or homecoming games, attendance at a cappella concerts and major theater concerts on campus generally is equal to or greater than attendance at athletic events). I don't know what percentage of Williams students in total participate in one of the numerous campus theater, music, dance, or art groups, major in the fine arts, or have performed in a campus production of some sort, but I would be willing to bet it is right around the same percentage of students who are varsity athletes. And the percentage of students involved in community service or campus leadership is likewise right at the same level, or higher. </p>

<p>There are more men on the men's cross country and track team than on the football team -- and I don't think anyone is claiming that participation in these sports is associated with a particular culture or academic problems or whatnot. The percentage of Williams students involved in football, hockey, baseball, basketball is basically the same or less than every other NESCAC school. It is the relatively huge rosters in track, swimming, cross country, crew, and tennis, particularly on the men's side, that account for the difference in varsity percentage between Williams and, say, Amherst. And very, very few of the athletes in any of those sports are "tips", meaning their academic credentials are basically in line with the rest of campus. On a percentage basis, Amherst has far more low-band tip admits than Williams (as Amherst has the same or bigger roster in football, hockey, basketball, the primary tip sports). And Amherst is just as, or more, successful as Williams in these sports. That is the point loss in acting like Williams has this total jock-culture. The most consistently successful and largest programs are generally the ones with top student-athletes who probably wouldn't ever be called a "jock" by their peers -- cross country, track, tennis, swimming, crew, etc. </p>

<p>IN terms of the football team, the average SAT of the tipped football playes this year was supposedly around 1400. Williams, along with Amherst, has the most qualified football athletes of any NESCAC school, and the football rosters are more or less the same size at each NESCAC school (many of which are substantially smaller than Williams in overall student body size).</p>

<p>I have also taken the time to copy and crunch a few numbers taken from the websites of Williams, Amherst and Swarthmore...just to satisfy myself.
However, lest I be accused of "fuzzy math", I want to state up front that it is quite possible that I could have miscounted a few entries as it got mezmerizing to count all the names on the school rosters.</p>

<p>OK…here are some numbers taken from the websites of WAS:</p>

<p>Williams Amherst Swarthmore
Men
Football 87 87 not offered<br>
X-country 60 30 16
Track & field 56 30 43*
Lacrosse 37 35 22
Swim & diving 36 27 20
Soccer 32 30 25
Baseball 29 29 19
Ice hockey 23 24
Tennis 23 21 13
Wrestling 18
Basketball 18 18 14
Crew 17
Squash 16 18
Nordic skiing 13
Alpine skiing 11
Golf 10 10 13</p>

<p>Women
X-country 50 22 16
Swim & diving 46 22 20
Track & field 42 27 29*
Lacrosse 26 25
Field hockey 26 22 21
Soccer 24 22 22
Ice hockey 21 22
Crew 17
Softball 17 15 14
Golf 16 7
Squash 14 16
Basketball 14 13 12
Volleyball 14 10 12
Nordic skiing 14
Alpine skiing 11
Tennis 10 17 14
Badminton 0 0 11
___ ______ _______
Total # “athletes”** 848 599 356
Total no. undergrads 2113 1664 1467</p>

<p>% student-athletes 40% 36% 24%</p>

<p>I have also taken the time to copy and crunch a few numbers taken from the websites of Williams, Amherst and Swarthmore...just to satisfy myself.
However, lest I be accused of "fuzzy math", I want to state up front that it is quite possible that I could have miscounted a few entries as it got mezmerizing to count all the names on the school rosters.</p>

<p>OK…here are some numbers taken from the websites of WAS:</p>

<pre><code> Williams Amherst Swarthmore
</code></pre>

<p>Men
Football 87 87 not offered<br>
X-country 60 30 16
Track & field 56 30 43*
Lacrosse 37 35 22
Swim & diving 36 27 20
Soccer 32 30 25
Baseball 29 29 19
Ice hockey 23 24
Tennis 23 21 13
Wrestling 18
Basketball 18 18 14
Crew 17
Squash 16 18
Nordic skiing 13
Alpine skiing 11
Golf 10 10 13</p>

<p>Women
X-country 50 22 16
Swim & diving 46 22 20
Track & field 42 27 29*
Lacrosse 26 25
Field hockey 26 22 21
Soccer 24 22 22
Ice hockey 21 22
Crew 17
Softball 17 15 14
Golf 16 7
Squash 14 16
Basketball 14 13 12
Volleyball 14 10 12
Nordic skiing 14
Alpine skiing 11
Tennis 10 17 14
Badminton 0 0 11
___ ______ _______
Total # “athletes”** 848 599 356
Total no. undergrads 2113 1664 1467</p>

<p>% student-athletes 40% 36% 24%</p>

<p>You didn't count the junior varsity players, club sport players, or those who came to Williams thinking they would be on teams and ended up opting out. (You'll be at above 50%.)</p>

<p>Sorry...the table did not come out like I wanted, and when I tried to correct the format I ended up with a double post.</p>

<p>Notes:
* I subtracted all the athletes who were listed twice on the Swarthmore roster for winter indoor track, and spring track and field.
Note: I did NOT subtract students who play more than one sport. There are a number of athletes at Williams who play two different sports, and even some who play in all three seasons.</p>

<p>**athletes counted in the tally are from straight from the rosters and seem to be Varsity and JV combined (at least I could not find any distinctions b/w V and JV) for any of the three schools.<br>
Moreover, these numbers do NOT include club and/or intramural sports for any of the three schools.</p>

<p>Mini:
I was continuing to write the explanations to the table while you replied in between.
But let me repeat...the students who are involved in club sports and intramurals etc. and not in the numbers for Amherst nor for Swarthmore, either. And perhaps those figures would be in the same proportions for all three schools.
Moreover, I know that Williams has a very generous "walk on" policy...taking many kids on their teams who show an interest in being part of that team...even if they were not the recruited, stars or starters in that sport.</p>

<p>If you knew much about the other two schools, you would know that they would NOT be in the same proportions, and that there are more jv/club sport teams at Williams. JVs play a completely separate schedule from varsity teams, and are not counted in the varsity count.</p>

<p>(You are also likely to find far, far more walk-ons proportionally at Swarthmore, but that's a separate issue entirely.)</p>

<p>I should note that the school likes it that way (50%+ athletes) and there is nothing wrong with that. It is great that there are choices.</p>

<p>Another metric that you could find is total athletic spending (or spending per capita).</p>

<p>Mini:
Can you show me the link for the roster of the Amherst JV soccer team?</p>

<p>qwert:</p>

<p>There's a much easier way to get the data. Go to this website:</p>

<p><a href="http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Enter the full name of the college in the search box, e.g. "Williams College".</p>

<p>The first page you get to will give you the number of athletes on each men's and women's team and the total number of unduplicated athletes at the school. This last number is what the colleges report to USNEWS for their online edition.</p>

<p>If you click the "Revenues and Expenses" link at the bottom of the page, you'll get the athletic budget for each school.</p>

<p>BTW, to the best of my knowledge, there are no JV teams at Swathmore. There are some club sports: Ultimate Frisbee and Rugby being two that are quite visible on campus.</p>

<p>BTW2, one of the things that's really changed in DivIII athletics is the decline in the number of multi-sport athletes. For example, Williams has 464 men on rosters of varsity sports teams and 350 of them only play one sport. This trend has elevated the importance of recruiting.</p>

<p>The Athletics budgets at the three schools are:</p>

<p>Williams: $5,697,753
Amherst: $3,278,023
Swarthmore: $2,239,140</p>

<p>ID, do you know what Bowdoin and Midd's athletic budgets are?</p>

<p>Interested dad:
Thanks so much for the link...it would have saved me a lot of time and effort!</p>

<p>Interesting thing though:
My numbers can straight off the website of each school...so fall roster would have been updated, but the winter and spring sports would be from previous season.</p>

<p>Neverless, it is interesting to see that:</p>

<pre><code> Williams Amherst Swat
</code></pre>

<p>website's no. of
athletes.......... 848 599 356</p>

<p>ope.ed.gov no............ 825 605 448</p>

<p>UNDUPLICATED no. 601 489 345</p>

<p>% of student body.... 31% 30% 24%
(unduplicated)</p>

<p>WOW... At Williams, 224 of the students (out of 825 participating on "varsity" teams) are playing more than one sport;116 play multiple sports at Amherst; and 103 at Swarthmore.
I guess there are fewer "jocks" running around campus than I thought after all!</p>

<p>Middlebury: $4,028,115
Bowdoin: $3,710,200
Wesleyan: $3,079,274 </p>

<p>And to add a second point of comparison for a non-football school:</p>

<p>Haverford: $1,806,933</p>

<p>Here are the full-time undergrad enrollments and per student athletics expenses:</p>

<p>2050 $2,779 Williams
1677 $2,212 Bowdoin
1640 $1,999 Amherst
2357 $1,709 Middlebury
2767 $1,113 Wesleyan</p>

<p>And, for the non-football schools:</p>

<p>1172 $1,542 Haverford
1474 $1,519 Swarthmore</p>

<p>it's strange the women's colleges don't appear on that link from interesteddad.it seems to me when people discuss athletics on cc, it's always in reference to male sports and its impact on culture of the college.</p>

<p>There's a reason the women's colleges do not appear. The statistics on that site are the result of mandatory federal reporting in conjunction with Title IX requiring equity in men's and women's sports. The law is the "Equity in Athletics Disclosure Act" and the website is the "Equity in Athletics Disclosure Website".</p>

<p>Thanks ID (I should have read in full your post above to learn that I could have extracted the budget info myself!) I expected Middlebury's budget to be closer to Williams.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You didn't count the junior varsity players, club sport players, or those who came to Williams thinking they would be on teams and ended up opting out. (You'll be at above 50%.)

[/quote]
If you counted club sports, you'd end up at about 75% for most of these schools. BTW, JV athletes are considered participants in a varsity sport when colleges put these numbers together. It's not a separate program. They're just not the starters--that's all it means.</p>

<p>That is not correct. The government reporting site is very clear about the definition of "varsity team":</p>

<p>
[quote]
A team that (A) Is designated or defined by its institution or an athletic association as a varsity team; or (B) Primarily competes against other teams that are designated or defined by their institutions or athletic associations as varsity teams.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You can see that Williams reports accurately. They report 70 members of the varsity team in the government reporting. Their athletics website lists 88 participants in the football program, not all of whom are counted in the varsity numbers.</p>

<p>okay, this might be a little off tangent from what yal are posting here, but personally, i don't understand the whole brouhaha about athletics at williams.</p>

<p>fact is, athletics and athletes permeate williams, and that many, many prospies are actually attracted by this. i know i was. admittedly, there will be some who're concerned that williams might be "too athletic" for them, but if you're about to go to college in the berkshires, you better have some athletic blood flowing through your veins! the outdoors are such a big part of what williams is (woolf, mountain day etc.), if you're so adverse to physical activity/sports, then well, go to nyu instead.</p>

<p>i see 75% as a figure for people who were athletes in high school in one of the posts above mine, so i'll use that as reference. so, only 25% of students who end up at williams are the sedentary sort, why should we say "oh the athletics are that big, you've got about 25% (oh wowww that's 500 people!) who don't do much sports either"? why can't we embrace the whole athletic culture, which frankly, is ultimately very very beneficial in overweight america, and very much a draw for many of the students who end up at billsville.</p>