<p>I also believe that while the colleges or programs that have very low admit rates are unpredictable and feel like the lottery or a crapshoot…I also believe if you are a TRUE contender for those types of schools, you will get into at least one of them (even if you just apply to 8 very selective schools). If you are closed out of all 8 selective schools, you may not have been a contender. I expect top students to be REJECTED at some schools of this type but NOT ALL on the schools on their list, if they were shooting for schools where they were realistically strong applicants.</p>
<p>momofthreeboys…I agree on the WANT vs. NEED point with a high number of apps. I have to laugh because at the same time I read your post, I got an email titled: “Want/Need” and thought it must be from a member posting on this thread. But alas, it is an advertisement email from Urban Outfitters. 
I could use the “want/need” analysis when it comes to my girls going clothes shopping too, LOL.</p>
<p>jolynne-
Agree that adjectives like “insane” or “crazy” that some posters (don’t recall who) used were unnecessary and/or probably offensive, just as were “morally superior” and “hoity-toity”. </p>
<p>I also think that most of use here have learned a lot from cc and all the other resources we used along the college app way, and probably could give very well reasoned presentations to counselors, educators, parents, etc. In fact, several years ago, early into the college app process, DH and I attended a presentation given by the parent of a local Stanford student on how they found FA resources and navigated the applications process. I might go back and find my notes from her talk (probably 6 yrs ago now) and see, looking back, how helpful her suggestions were.</p>
<p>No doubt what works for one might not work for another. We, for example, are fortunate to live in a big city where lots of adcomms come to do presentations for their college, and students can get face time with them. Our HS hosts a huge college fair every year (attended by hundreds of colleges) also giving opportunities to get info and meet counselors. </p>
<p>All that said, I still dont feel I have the indepth knowledge, experience or contacts that our head college counselor or her staff does. After our first meeting with our older s’s assigned cc, armed (as instructed) with our prelim list of schools and summary of his background, goals, personality, stats, etc, I felt that the additional schools she suggested were really not good fits for him (she suggested some really crunchy granola schools that were a bit too far in the ozone for him). I contacted the head counselor sometime later (at the suggestion of a friend) and asked if I could buy an hour of her time to pick her brain (she does private counseling on the side). She told me that she would never charge a family who attended our/her school anything, and she’d be happy to chat with me for a one-time consultation, but it was understood by both of us that we’d still be using our assigned counselor throughout the process (which was absolutely fine). The breadth and depth of knowledge she has about a huge number of schools right at her fingertips is astounding. Based on what I shared with her about DS (and her quick review of his stats, schedule, ECs, etc) she suggested a few more schools to consider that were PERFECT, including the one he fell in love with and attended. She is the one who put that school on our radar screen. </p>
<p>Oh, and as an aside, like the poster above from PA (apologies, I forget your SN) our kids private school (first a private religious school, then a non denominational one) cost $6-14K over the course of the years, with increases due to both general price increases and the increasing costs in middle and HS. Not cheap, for sure, but not in the stratosphere. We scrimp and save to pay for education.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t really be affected by this because I’m only applying to 4 or 5 schools. However, schools would have to come up with more effective marketing and admissions processes. Selectivity will be lowered.</p>
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<p>Thank you, soozievt for saying this. The key is to determine that you <em>are</em> a true contender.</p>
<p>JHS, the strategy you described is what many students at both my kids’ programs do as well. The flagship loves the kids from these programs and is generous with merit money. Parents and kids alike tend to follow the mindset of a few mega reaches (which they perceive as “worth it”) and the flagship w/money. In this scenario, students from S1’s HS program accpeted to Cornell and CMU tend to lose out to the full rides at the flagship.</p>
<p>@JHS–By referring to Philadelphia, I just meant that your view of admissions is different from mine, presumably because the experiences of your children and their friends have been different from the experiences of QMP and QMP’s friends. (I have sent you a PM about it.)</p>
<p>It might have been one-time random bad luck in my immediate area. Or it might be an actual geographical difference between our region and yours. I have to admit that one change in admissions outcomes for one of QMP’s friends might have significantly shifted my opinion–so it’s hardly scientific! </p>
<p>We do have a fine public university in my state. Thirty+ years ago, I turned down MIT to attend it. When I first started reading CC (as a lurker, so pre-2005), I was put off (if not offended) by students posting what amounted to “all this work, to wind up at a state school.” However, after 4 years of observing the workload of QMP and several of QMP’s friends, and observing the considerably lower level of effort that sufficed for admission to the state school, my opinion has shifted. If you look at the total number of students who are admitted by one of HYPSM (thousands, summing the freshman class sizes), I think you can legitimately say that certain students deserve to be among them. But it doesn’t always work out that way.</p>
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<p>That is what I’ve seen around here – most recently, someone who applied to Harvard, Yale, Penn and state flagship. He was heading towards the state flagship but then got pulled off waitlist at Penn and is going there. </p>
<p>He lucked out, but I thought it was a risky strategy, if it were my kid I’d have quite a few choices in between Ivies and state flagship.</p>
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<p>You’re fortunate. Understand that for some of us, our college counseling staff focuses 90% of their time in the logistics of getting people to the state or directional flagship u’s, with a few private colleges thrown in there for good measure. They don’t “know” my kids (or any kids, really) beyond meeting with them once or twice a year, and they can’t possibly be legitimately expected to have any insight into what’s right for them. I guarantee that I know more about all the colleges that I’ve suggested my kids investigate, than any of them do. I’ve grown up in a different part of the country, I’ve traveled extensively, I have visited many of these campuses in the course of my travels, I have professional associates, I have the many fine resources at cc – and I guarantee you for half the colleges on our list, all they would know is “I’ve heard of that school, I think it’s good, and it’s in X part of the country.” That’s not a slam on them, btw. That’s run-of-the-mill public school counseling – heavily focused on local and state universities. It’s no different now than what it was in my day, when as a smart hs student in St. Louis I was told “apply to St. Louis U and Wash U,” as if a) those two schools were the same caliber and as if b) there wasn’t a world outside Missouri.</p>
<p>True, Pizza, our school is much the same say. I’m sure that there are colleges or unis “out there” that would have been great for my boys. There are probably some that may have offered a few more thousand dollars, etc. I don’t really think about that on too many levels because in the long run it just doesn’t make a huge difference in the outcome. I’ve leaned a ton from the long term posters about how to help the kids put together a good list. The counselors at the high school are always fascinated by their choices, but not in a nuanced way to really understand the differences. All is good and I have no doubt that this spring #2 will be totally happy with whatever comes. Even though I’m an INTJ I’m laid back enough to roll with it all.</p>
<p>^^ yes, pizzagirl, I know we were fortunate to have such a knowledgeable college counseling staff. That was exactly my point. I think that because so many HS’s don’t have this, the kids/parents, especially of those who (a) want to look at schools far and wide, especially our of their region and/or lesser known schools (b) are candidates for the top schools and (c) want/need to explore FA options are left to fend for themselves and cast a very, very wide net. While it may be right for them and their situation, if they’d had better guidance and resources along the way, they might have chosen to , and felt comfortable paring the list down. I do think the anxiety factor has a lot to do with it. We need to feel comfortable with the process (as best we can) and people’s comfort levels differ.</p>
<p>I do also think that the USNews hype and the ease of multiple applications with the common/universal app (even with the individual tweaking necessary) also contributes to the increased # of applications people are wanting/willing to complete. I remember the day of individually typing each of my 3 college applications. I hated it and pushed the time limit on them. If I had to do a lot more, I’d probably have been certifiable.</p>
<p>Yes, I think the anxiety is a component. If you just read the posts from parents with les than 4.0 students you can feel the anxiety. I think that right now is a great time to be in colleges and universities. The campuses utilized the economic gains of the 80s to improve and beef up campuses. The volume of kids heading for college has pressed down top students into lower tiers so the caliber of colleges has increased. Easy transportation coupled with college desire for geographic diversity leading to tuition discounting has made the entire country fair game for students. Our baby boom generation that became professors have many years of teaching under their belts. The next couple years are going to be rough while colleges figure out just how much financial $$ they want to put into the student pot and how to support exotic majors, but overall, I think it’s a great time to be going to college. Wish I were doing it again.</p>
<p>I never called it “our list”, it was always “D list”. </p>
<p>It was their process, their applications, their essays, their college.</p>
<p>Yes I gave advice, but I always remembererd it was their deal.</p>
<p>And yes, I know it was my money, but I had to let go of alot of what I wanted to hold onto throughout the application process.</p>
<p>Think it worked.</p>
<p>There’s no discounting the value of a good HS GC – I’ve known several personally and I know a number of families w/kids at private schools. That personal, one-on-one rel’p with the student (and, at times, w/the adcoms at colleges) is often counted as worth the price of admission to the private school. </p>
<p>However, I’d take issue with the idea that ‘casting a wide net’ = lacking in guidance and resources in the college app process. In my profession I reseach hours each day, so know how to find and evaluate information, as well as locate others with relevant contributions. </p>
<p>My son selected a major about which I initially knew nothing — I was blessed to find a PhD in that major on CC who guided me thru the nuances of rankings of schools offering that major and the substance of various programs. He even assisted me w/assessing the relative value of the those schools in relation to our COA for each and tailored his advice to my son’s characteristics. I can’t really repay his generosity, except by offering what I’ve learned to other parents (as I’ve done in our school district).</p>
<p>Could even a knowledgeable private counselor have given me the finer points of projected employability in my son’s major relative to different colleges? Or assessed the practical vs theoretical aspect of the courses offered at some of his choices? </p>
<p>I don’t think so.</p>
<p>We all don’t need to pay a private college admissions counselor to make effective decisions for our kids. And, I’d hate for the conclusion of this thread to be: if you don’t have much of a clue, or access to a pricey private counselor – well, only then you might be justified in casting a wide net.</p>
<p>Applying to multiple schools can be a well-thought out, well-reasoned decision on the part of the student and the family. It might not look that way to others (obviously!) but it certainly can be the case.</p>
<p>Let’s imagine a kid who lives in Maryland. He has perfect grades, very high SATs, and excellent (but not earth-shattering) ECs. He goes and tours a bunch of colleges, and when he comes back, his favorites are Harvard and Princeton. He also liked Tufts. You are his advisor, and he wants your input on how many schools he should apply to, and which ones. In my opinion, you are doing him a disservice if you tell him to apply to six schools, with 2 reach, 2 match, and 2 safety. If he really likes Harvard and Princeton the best, why not suggest that he apply to several more schools that are like those–maybe Penn, or Stanford, or Duke, or Brown. He might think about some selective LACs. But if he applies to Harvard, Princeton, Tufts, Wash U., Maryland, and Pitt, he’s probably going to Tufts or Wash. U. Is that a tragedy? Not at all. But he’s going somewhere less like his actual preferences than he might have been able to do with more applications. Again, this strategy applies to people who are interested in schools where the odds of admission are low–which means the Ivies et al. for almost everyone.</p>
<p>There are different “wants” and “needs” in the college application process.</p>
<p>First of all, no one “needs” to hire independent college counselors, take SAT prep classes, etc. </p>
<p>If there was a 6-application limit, then how about limiting other aspects of the college application process as well? Students must do their own work in their essays and not have their essays perfected by adults. No SAT prep classes, only two test adminstrations allowed and no more score choice. (Same for ACT.)</p>
<p>Sounds ridiculous, yes? Then why on earth would some people want to limit college applications to 6?! Mary Jones in a large public high school with mediocre counseling and who only took the SAT twice should have the same number of applications as Buffy Smith from a private high school with a private college counselor who had her essays microedited and attended SAT prep classes, had a private SAT tutor and took the SAT six times?</p>
<p>Nope. Let each student submit as many applications as they like.</p>
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<p>The issue I have with your post is it is based on YOUR experience, which is as a professional COLLEGE counselor. Thus, by definition you should be able to help a student winnow his/he list down. But, the vast MAJORITY of high school counselors spend the vast majority of their time keeping kids in school (truancy issues, drugs, hazing, family breakups, abuse, etc), not in college counseling.</p>
<p>Thus, I think it unfair for an expert on COLLEGE counseling such as yourself to assume (and therefore opine) that others have even close to the same qualifications. Indeed, ditto for those that attend private schools which have fantastic Student/GC ratios. It just ain’t true in the “real world.”</p>
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<p>That is where I have a fundamental philosophical difference. For some high-achieving students, the primary objective is to attend a highly selective college where they can thrive among other highly academically talented individuals, not just some college where they can be happy. Most 18 year olds are highly adaptable and will have a positive college experience wherever they go. If that is the criteria for the college selection process that is a pretty low bar. </p>
<p>Soozviet’s advice of a balanced list reminds me of the typical public high school guidance counselor advice, in the end completely unhelpful. Who cares about matches and safeties if your objective is to be in the most challenging environment possible. As foreign born and having lived here for over 30 years, it always amazed me that Americans were extremely competitive in athletics and will do anything to get their kids into the very best programs they can, but are often relatively insensitive in regards to variations in quality in higher education. </p>
<p>Parents will tour the country for the best Div I football program, best dance or MT program for their talented child, with numerous interviews with coaches, administrators, tryouts and auditions. When it comes to the academic side, it is more like picking a Club Med vacation: which school had the best weather, the biggest dorms, the best food. While they will readily admit that an athletic program at a particular school is vastly superior, in regards to academics, almost every college will provide a good academic experience in their mind. That is obviously a gross generalization, but in the very competitive suburban high school in the NYC area which our two D’s attend, it is mostly Jewish, Asian or children of foreign parents that strive to attend the most selective colleges. They simply have different expectations from education. It goes well beyond elitism to the core of what higher education is all about: striving for academic excellence. </p>
<p>If athletes are routinely commended for striving for excellence, why should academically talented students be perceived any differently? Nobody questions a very talented high school football player wanting to play Div I football in college. Playing Div III football is not an option. Why is it any different for a gifted student wanting to attend an elite educational institution? </p>
<p>Our D’s list was 17 schools and by Soozviet’s measure it would be GROSSLY UNBALANCED with 10 universities among the top 15 as well as the top 5 LACs. She had one safety, UCLA (OOS) where she was virtually certain to be admitted. She certainly had the stats to be admitted anywhere, but so did thousands of other qualified applicants. The LACs were actually recommended by a top consultant. The cost of a 2 hour evaluation was probably some of the best money we spent. The counselor added more reaches and helped us understand how to maximize our D’s chances at each school. He understood the objective and helped us towards that goal. He was not telling us to add matches or safeties. Our D felt she belonged in an environment surrounded by many other high achievers and was not afraid of testing herself against the best. She knew the odds and was willing to take the risk. </p>
<p>Would our D have been happy at all of the colleges she chose? Absolutely. We had visited nearly all of them. She sat in on classes wherever she could. Visited labs. She spoke to students and faculty. She knew the major she wanted to study (Neuroscience) and wanted a college where she would be able to perform high level research as an undergrad. This pretty much restricted her to the most selective universities and LACs. In that sense, her approach was no different from that of the MT major who has very long odds at each school or the premed student routinely applying to 20 schools. </p>
<p>I can pretty much guarantee that the type of BALANCED approach that Soozviet suggests with a few carefully chosen reaches, a few matches and a few safeties is largely a GUARANTEE OF FAILURE if the primary objective is to attend a most selective college. If the measure of success is acceptance at SOME college, not the most challenging, that is hardly an achievement. For our D, matches were schools such as Cornell, Duke or Brown, still highly selective. In the end, there was simply no way to trim her list without impacting her chances of admission to a top program. She did not care, or had the luxury to care about factors such as weather, Greek life, dorms, urban or rural location. As long as she was challenged and stimulated intellectually, the rest was largely irrelevant. </p>
<p>As far as preferences, she did not perceive much difference in the admitted students from the schools she applied to. Many of the top LAC student had also applied to the most selective universities and may actually have enrolled at them had they been admitted. The Stanford students would have been fine at Harvard or Yale if that is what the luck of the draw had determined. Same thing with MIT and Princeton. Brown, Dartmouth and Amherst. In the end, the commonalities among these universities and LACs were much greater than any differences: academics were always number one and they had a strong talent pool.</p>
<p>cellardweller, at first blush the problem I am seeing is that many are associating “safety” with lower tier college/uni. I don’t think so. You had your “safety” which is by no means “lower tier” so after that why did you feel you still needed to apply to 16 more? I’m genuinely curious what the rationale was… I never took SuzieVT to mean that the safeties had to be third or fourth tier, just a school that the student was assured of acceptance.</p>
<p>I also don’t think that a “balanced list” means two reaches, two matches, and two safeties. Personally, I consider a list with 8 reaches, two matches, and two safeties to be a balanced list for somebody who really wants highly selective schools.
And if UCLA OOS is the safety, then it seems we’re talking about a pretty qualified student (hopefully). For such a student, a list of 15 highly selective schools will still contain some that are more selective than others. But if there is a big gap between them and the safety, then I don’t think the approach is prudent, unless there are other strong reasons to attend the safety.</p>