Employers use those same COL tools (but more sophisticated- way more inputs than money magazine uses) which is why a school teacher in Arkansas makes less than a school teacher in NYC.
I have a friend who is a speech therapist in NYC and she makes a low six figure income. No weekends. Takes off the month of July. She’d be making 45K in Arizona according to Money magazine.
LOL! Unheard of in Seattle as well. I can smuggle candy in but it’s $2.00 a box unless I want to drive 15 min to the dollar store in the wrong direction. Movie tickets are $13.24 a piece. Taking all 6 of us to the movies is an expensive outing that we rarely do.
I think for some, that is a source of annoyance. Frustration and complaining would be a gross overstatement but, in general financial calculators to tend to assume all things are equal (cost of living, sales tax, income tax, property tax etc) and they aren’t. Which does impact everyone’s disposable income. Of course it impacts salaries as well but not always to the degree one would assume.
My company has offices in CA and HI. I would not be paid an iota more in either location. My H could not do what he does in either location. While Seattle has a very high COA, much of CA, especially the bay area, and all of Hawaii, is worse. I cannot hire quality people for my Hawaii office as they cannot afford to live there for what we can pay, it would be a 30% reduction and that’s a huge quality of life adjustment.
I grew up in Seattle, but lived in Chicago for a decade. I moved back with the company I’d been working for in Chicago. Zero salary increase. The price I paid for my first house here, a 70’s daylight rambler that came complete with flocked wallpaper, wood paneling and coil burners, could have bought me a mini mansion in the Chicago suburbs at the time. The utilities were 3x as much, the lot 1/2 the size of what I’d left which was in a very desirable but not top, suburb (and what I moved into here). Was it a choice to come back? Absolutely, and the right one, I’d do it again. But it definitely had a financial impact.
Is it really nessasary to dissect every word someone types? This will be my last post chiming in on this thread. @politeperson I’ve read 51%, if you say it’s 45% of Americans not paying federal income taxes I’ll concede that point, can we agree it roughly half? I have a bigger problem with upper income earners who use loopholes and tax shelters to not pay their fair share than lower income earners who don’t pay, at any rate if you don’t understand that some people pay no taxes and others pay exorbitant amounts of taxes and that as a working family that would impact our take home salary then I’m not sure what to tell you. @NosyCaliparent I’m thrilled for you your children have been so successful. I never said my kids home district was LAUSD, I teach in LAUSD. My older kids went through public. By the time my younger kids started school the California budget cuts hit and our local district was frankly ravaged. Child #3 spent one year in public, it was hideous in comparison to my older kids experience several years earlier and we pulled him out and found a private school. Child #4 has autism, we found an apporiate school for him to enable him to have a happy and productive life. He is thriving. It’s expensive and it’s my choice to pay for that school, and I make that choice happily. Frankly his future is worth any cost and of our four children he has the greatest level of need. I get that I’m fortunate, believe me. It’s not as if a bag of money fell in my lap though. I grew up in poverty, my husband grew up working class. We wracked up 70k in student loans between the two of us getting undergraduate and graduate degrees. As a young family starting out those loan payments hurt but they enabled up to make the kind of income we now have.
No one should be arguing the exact number of people not paying fed income tax. It’s around 50%…and that probably ONLY counts those who actually file. It doesn’t count people whose incomes are UNDER the table.
One family here had $70k of student loans to pay back, which I’m sure had a significant impact to the family’s day to day living while those payments were being made. It was probably like making 2-3 extra car payments over 10+ years.
I hope others who are considering big loans really think about that.
@socalmom007 sorry that I took your comment so personally. I’m happy that your youngest has found a great school. For all of California’s problems they do have some great schools for special needs kids. Good luck to your daughter on the ACT and best wishes for your family in the future.
I think that students who get into their state flagship deserve to receive enough financial and/or merit aid to attend. It seems like a normal part of the compact between a state and its residents, one that we all took for granted until recently, and one that the American dream was partially built on.
As for UC’s, the issue is that per-student budget has greatly decreased. So, OOS/international students are supposed to make up the shortfall so that the young Californians admitted can still receive a quality education. In the end, in order for more Californian students to enroll (and thus keeping in step with demographic increases) the state should redirect some of the taxes Californians pay, back to the UC’s, with a corrollary of an increase in student admitted and sufficient (//2006?) per-student funding. This would allow to cut down on the number of OOS/International students admitted, without weakening the undergraduate education offered. Simply increasing admitted class size and decreasing OOS/Intl acceptance numbers wouldn’t help, as budget shortfalls would hurt all students admitted.
@socalmom007: although your daughter can’t count on UCLA, she’s sure to get into UCSC, UCR, or UCM, and she may get Regents, plus UC’s count Room&Board when they calculate financial need so she has a shot a UCSB and UCD too. Some CSU’s are more residential and many have merit scholarships: CSU Chico Honors, SDSU, Cal Poly SLO, CPP if you’re tech-oriented, even Sonoma if you’re more liberal arts oriented. ASU Barrett likes California applicants and can be a very good deal for high stats students priced out of the UCs. NM Tech, Montana State, are two other possibilities for someone interested in STEM. UoP, Chapman, LMU, St Mary’s all offer merit (Occidental and Scripps may, too.)
Really? OMG. That was the price of a movie ticket when I first moved to Manhattan. In 1982.
@socalmom007 I think most people understand the progressive tax structure, and that taxes affect take home pay. Yes some folks don’t pay fed income taxes, but for those at the bottom the taxes that they do pay represent a significant percentage of their gross salary. My point is: what does that have to do with your ability to pay for college? It seems unrelated to me, unless I am missing something.
EFC takes into account the different tax levels by state (nominally).
@MYOS1634: “I think that students who get into their state flagship deserve to receive enough financial and/or merit aid to attend.”
I think you meant students who get into their state universities, not just their flagship ones. Otherwise, it would make those who get into non-flagship state universities really unhappy.
Overall, this line of thinking is noble. But there are quite a few complexities and unintentional consequences. For one, who is going to pay for it? State government? State residents would need to support it; this would mean they impose higher local taxes onto themselves. For the past 20-30 years, this has not really happened in any single state. Given this track record, can we realistically expect this would happen at the federal level? I am doubtful.
Furthermore, when the effective cost of attending state universities is lowered, the demand for state education will go up. With more in-state students, the cost will be higher than the current number of in-state students would suggest.
The additional demand for in-state education has two components: (1) a substitution component due to a reduction for private education, and (2) a new demand component that entices those high school graduates who initially would not want to pursue a college degree into their state colleges. I am quite worrisome about the second component. They are overall less motivated for a college education at the first place. Now they add to the pool of new college graduates. Can they do well in the job market? Would they get angrier down the road? I think there are policy implications.
Gosh I remember H and I were in Houston in 1978, we went to see Superman at the movie theater and paid $8 a ticket - and the theater was trashy/dirty. We go to very few movies, but when we do, we go to really nice, clean, plush seats, etc. We were starting out/broke - one remembers those ‘lean’ times.
Unfortnunately, pay for some jobs doesn’t increase incrementally with cost of living. When our S16 was born we were living in NYC; both of us managed branch libriaries. We moved to the DC area shortly after he was born, and my salary was higher with less responsibility. Our house payment, including taxes and insurance, is lower than our rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in Brooklyn. Our combined 100k income would be high in a lot of places, but it isn’t in our county. We definitely fall into the “too much income for federal aid but not enough for full pay” category. We’re ok because 1) S16 had very high test scores and 2) wife’s parents are very well off. Not everyone is so lucky. We could have easily afforded S16’s 2nd choice school without help, but S18 doesn’t test quite as well (top 10% as opposed to top 1%). We would have more of a challenge paying for his college without help.
To answer this thread’s title question, our 2015 household AGI was around $130K and we are “full-pay” at an expensive top LAC ($65K). Of course, in making that determination, the financial aid office looked at a lot more than just our income… We were surprised, but the reality is that yes, we can make it happen. It’s not easy, but it is possible (for us). College is a luxury (especially at a top LAC), and I don’t think it unreasonable to expect families to have to make significant sacrifices to send their kids there.
I put myself through college and law school, graduating 30 odd years ago with $27K in debt (approximately $100K nowadays). I had no choice - my parents not only refused to pay one penny for my education, they demanded rent money and insisted that I pay for every one of my expenses myself. I could not borrow the car without giving my father gas money in advance. I went to my last choice college - a CUNY school 10 minutes from home, and to a brand new unaccredited law school that offered me FA. For undergrad, I got into BU, Syracuse and Queens College honors program, for law school, I got into GW, Brooklyn and New York Law. I did what I had to do, which was go to the least expensive schools.
My H attended a state school, commuting home every weekend to work at a catering hall to pay his bills and becoming an RA to help. We met at law school. He attended at night, taking an extra year to graduate so that he could work to pay his tuition. His parents didn’t help but they let him live home for free in law school and covered his car expenses. He had $21K in debt.
For years, H and I told our kids college was on them, the same way it had been for us. However, we did better financially than our parents and could help a bit. I refused to take a parent loan and discouraged my kids from taking loans. My D made it though on scholarships, working as an RA and a job at school (not work study, we didn’t qualify) for spending money. I paid the rest and she has a masters’ in special ed.
I have friends who mortgaged their homes and wiped out their retirement accounts to send their kids to expensive schools that were not that great. Some people think I am a terrible mother because I refused to do the same. I lead by my example. I didn’t attend top tier schools but I make a decent living. I will probably be able to set up college funds for any future grandchildren.
With S17, I can see from running NPC’s that we will not get any need based FA. He may get some small merit amounts but not a great deal since his stats are middling at best. It will likely be a state school for him since I can’t see spending the money for the type of private schools he could get into.
@MYOS1634: "I think that students who get into their state flagship deserve to receive enough financial and/or merit aid to attend." <<<
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That’s a feel-good statement that just isn’t affordable or reasonable.
Many/most states sprinkle their states with universities so that those who live nearby can commute. The idea that anyone who gets into the flagship should have taxpayers fund their COA, including room and board, is just not reasonable.
The net result would be middle/upper-middle class tax increases to the point that THEIR children wouldn’t be able to afford these schools because they’d have unaffordable EFCs.
The UCs in Calif are a bit like that. Those with incomes that don’t get “free money” (which is often about $90k), often cannot pay the $32k+ for their own child to attend…but their taxes are paying for lower income kids to attend. Not really fair, even if it sounds “nice.”
Tech, I don’t think people think you’re a terrible mother, but if you regularly share with your friends that you’ll be able to afford to set up college funds for your non-existent grandchildren but are refusing to help the kids you already have- that may raise some eyebrows.
It is very, very hard for a kid to self-fund nowadays. Kudos to you and your D for making it work.
For years, H and I told our kids college was on them, the same way it had been for us. However, we did better financially than our parents and could help a bit.
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Your story seems strange. You seem bitter over your parents’ cheapness in helping you with college. Unless your parents’ income was so modest that they couldn’t help at all and needed the rent money, their unwillingness to help you even the tiniest bit seems almost cruel. Yet you, with the fatter wallet, seem to want to “play out some sort of revenge,” by being very cheap with your kids.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that the “cheap local schools” back then were truly cheap. You got thru undergrad and law school with only $27k of debt.
You equate your $27k of debt to $100k of debt today, but a student today who has no parent help can’t pay for undergrad and law school with only $100k of debt. And even if they could, if that student has professional parents who could help, but don’t, then it’s a very sad situation.
You seem to excuse this by pointing to the other extreme: mortgaging homes and wiping out retirement accounts. Of course those choices are risky and probably not a good idea, but does that mean that the other extreme is good?
And there’s a lot of middle ground between 'last choice commuter school" and “top name school”.
Do I think you’re a “bad mother”? No. I totally understand not wanting to pay for a pricey private for a son whose stats are “middling at best”. But you declared that “college is on them” years ago before you knew what the stats would be.
Actually, it can be reasonable if the state believes that the flagship offers additional opportunities that are best suited for the top students, so that the added financial aid to allow a student from a low-to-middle income non-local family to attend the flagship can be thought of as a “merit scholarship” for those students from low-to-middle-income non-local families who show the level of merit needed to get admitted to the flagship, which is presumably a higher standard than that needed to get into the non-flagship state universities.
Otherwise, access to the flagship may be more determined by parental income and wealth and/or residency in its local area, rather than by being the kind of meritous top student who can make best use of the opportunities available there but not at the other state universities.
I’ve enjoyed reading the discussion. I think circumstances can vary quite a bit even in CA. The nearest CSU to us is at least 1.5 hours one way including a dangerous highway. And it doesn’t offer the major my D wants. The nearest UC is 3 hours away so not really commuting distance for either of them. And there are areas in the state 2-3 hours further away than we are with winter passes to contend with. While there may very well be decent community colleges in this state, our local one would not be one of them (it’s had a long history of problems). The distance factor is one of the reasons so few kids in the northern region of the state are able to successfully complete college. Not to mention the income levels tend to be low. Even if your student is one that is essentially guaranteed UC admission due to class rank, it is not necessarily to the one 3 hours away. In fact the GC’s at my D’s school are pretty frustrated at how difficult it is for local students to be accepted there. My D has good stats (3.97 unweighted; ACT 34; CR 1 but few EC’s) but will likely be going OOS to a school with merit (unfortunately she doesn’t want to go to UA). We are working on more merit scholarships, but even with what she gets from her 34 ACT score we are much better off financially than at a UC. She loves the school she has chosen (already accepted and will more than likely be accepted to their honors college). It may lack the prestige, but it is a good fit and something we can afford without qualifying for need based FA.