<p>tomslawsky-
The link you posted doesn't work.</p>
<p>You are quite willing to believe an obscure quote from the internet about Cornell grade inflation but are skeptical about someone who has four years experience in Cornell engineering.</p>
<p>The statistic I heard about Cornell grade inflation is that 10-20% Cornell graduates have honors compared with 80-90% at some other Ivies. I heard that Cornall awards the lowest percent of A grades in the Ivy League. I read that the percent of A grades at Cornell has increased 10% in the last 20 years but the average SATs at Cornell have also increased 50 points in the last 20 years which could account for the increase in A grades.</p>
<p>There were only about a dozen students out of 130 at the Cornell electrical engineering graduation ceremony who wore honors stoles. </p>
<p>Vice Provost Kramnick is one reason why Cornell does not have grade inflation. He had fought hard against it and had sounded the alarm about evidence of grade inflation.</p>
<p>Grade inflation is related to both the NUMBER of 'A's and 'B's and the the quality of the 'A's and 'B's. That is, the amount and level of the work required for an A is also relevant to grade inflation. This is part of the reason I say Cornell engineering does not have grade inflation. The amount and level of the work for an A or B is very high. I have compared notes with students at other engineering schools.</p>
<p>The average gpa at a school is related to the rigor of the school AND to the ability of the students. A 3.0 gpa might be the average gpa at an average university where SAT scores are in the 1100-1300 range. In the Ivies, the SAT scores run 200 points higher than that, so you would expect higher gpas.</p>
<p>Most of what I said above applies to all top engineering programs, not just Cornell.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The statistic I heard about Cornell grade inflation is that 10-20% Cornell graduates have honors compared with 80-90% at some other Ivies.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I believe the 80-90% statistic you're referring to is the old Harvard number. Hard to believe, but yes, that's how many Harvard grads left with either a "cum laude", "magna cum laude", or "summa cum laude" with them. To be fair, Harvard has cut down on this number significantly in the last few years by increasing the GPA requirements necessary to graduate with honors. That said though, graduating with honors at Cornell is much harder (or well...you need to be much higher in your class) than at other Ivies.</p>
<p>"cut-throat" implies that students would maliciously impede success of other students just to get higher grades -- however, i think that for most students the opportunity of immediately boosting own GPA through cooperation outweights the fact that by cooperation they might help someone in same major applying for same grad schools sometime in the future -- the grade point average doesn't really matter -- it is just that psychologically most students even at schools with most deflated grades will go for sharing homework, quiz and exam keys, and general information with anyone who can somehow help them out with their own grades or in some other way -- it is just that your present grade for o-chem or honors physics would seem to matter much more than the fact that someone with whom you exchanged information might be applying to medical schools along with you 2-3 years into the future -- sometimes, more rarely, people share information with others just out of the kindness of their own heart -- or they want to be liked -- it is rare that any student would try to spoil your chance to get an A in any class with deliberate intent</p>
<p>i would think that "cut-throat" would have more relevance in terms of describing schools in which one would have least chances of succeeding -- then one would work really hard in each class and the school would seem "cut-throat" because other student would often outperform you -- if you think of "cut-throat" in these terms, then of course schools with most deflated grade point average will be most cut-throat</p>
<p>"
[quote]
No grade inflation at cornell? That is a joke. Any school or major where the average GPA is above a "B" is inflated. One needs to be careful, one cannot go to a school with inflated grades and then talk about how academically rigorous the school is. It's pretty much an either-or situation.
[quote]
</p>
<p>either-or??? This logic is so faulty that it's not worth the effort at correcting."</p>
<p>Please do correct it. What is illogical about Either "A" OR "B". Either a school grades fairly ans imposes academic rigor or they inflate grades and do not impose rigor. Please feel free to correct the pure logic I used here. You are very close to shelling out an ad homymn attack to detract from the logical point.</p>
<p>If I was an alumni of one of these schools (and Cornell seems to be one of the better ones) I would never give a dime. Grade inflation cheapens the value of degrees. Look at what is happening in High Schools, almost everyone is an honors student (exaggeration), yet the skill level of HS grads is sinking like a rock.</p>
<p>Academic rigor has a lot more to it than just what avg GPA a school has.</p>
<p>Also, you could argue that it should be harder to graduate with honors from Cornell than Harvard because the students, on average, are not as smart at Cornell. Should Harvard students be penalized by going to Harvard if the % there graduating with honors was the same as Cornell, when presumably a very high % of Harvard students would graduate with honors had they gone to Cornell instead. Determining what % should graduate with honors from Harvard vs Cornell is a different story. Who's to say what the actual spread should be?</p>
<p>It's not as simple to compare Dartmouth to UHouston and say UHouston has it right. That may be an appropriate spread considering that the bottom 20% of Dartmouth would probably be in the top 20% of UHouston.</p>
<p>Do you honestly think that classes are harder at Harvard than Cornell?</p>
<p>Grades and standardized test scores are traditionally the gold standard for measuring academic rigor, though. An interesting note is that SAT scores have been sinking while High School grades have been on the rise-hmm. The SAT scores were dropping off so fast that the ETS had to re-center the scores 10 years ago to make the the scores still look respectable. I am wagering that the trend wil manifest itself in higher education as well.</p>
<p>"It's not as simple to compare Dartmouth to UHouston and say UHouston has it right. That may be an appropriate spread considering that the bottom 20% of Dartmouth would probably be in the top 20% of UHouston."</p>
<p>You are ignoring the exponential growth of Dartmouth GPA from 2.2 (not a typo) to 3.4 in less than 50 years.</p>
<p>I don't think the classes are more difficult at Harvard, but the students, on average, are smarter there. So, maybe the avg grade for a course at Harvard should be a B+ vs a B at Cornell.</p>
<p>Also tom, I don't get your point. What are you wagering is going to happen?</p>
<p>I am wagering that grade inflation in higher educarion will erode the value of a degree. I think that students will be released from universities with higher grades, less skills and less critical thinking and problem solving abilities. It is only a matter of time before a degree from a US school is the no longer brass ring of global academia. Yeah, I know it sounds far fetched, but I really think that colleges all over from top to bottom are dummying down classes and fluffing grades. Before you judge me as being crazy, do a search and read, there are plenty of facts and trends that back me up.</p>
<p>I'm not ignoring the large growth in avg GPA over the last 50 years, just saying the avg at Dartmouth should be a fair bit higher than UHouston. What was the UHouston avg GPA 50 years ago? </p>
<p>There have been many external factors for the climb in avg GPA at a place like Dartmouth in the last 50 years. 1. the students are fair bit smarter than they were (avg GPA has climbed 60 points in the last 18 years @ Dartmouth). 2. Vietnam War has been cited in many studies as a cause for the GPA climb. 3. The recent dramatic increase in cost has also been cited as a reason for the GPA climb.</p>
<p>tomslawsky-
regarding the above link:
That graph about the average gpa at Cornell increasing by .23 since 1990...I can't vouch for its accuracy but, if it is accurate, it wouldn't be too surprising since the average SAT scores increased substantially during the same time period. The gpa increase is probably due to increasing selectivity at Cornell, not due to trying to pick easy courses. The article contends that Cornell students are using the course grade distribution data that is published on the web to pick easy courses but I have never known one student who did this. I think the practice is overblown by the authors of the article, and it would probably be limited mostly to elective courses if it did occur.</p>
<p>Regarding Dartmouth, their average gpa has only increased by .12 since 1989 and I would not be surprised if Dartmouth has also become more selective.</p>
<p>I don't think the U Houston data proves much since it merely shows that U Houston's average gpa remained the same for four consecutive years 1995 through 1998. It isn't comparable to the Cornell or Dartmouth data.</p>
<p>The Ivies are now much more selective than they were in the 1950s. I have read all kinds of theories about why but the most important reason is that the numbers of applicants have increased astronomically and the Ivies get the cream of the crop. The period of supposed greatest grade inflation corresponds to the period when the baby boomers were entering college (1965-1980) and this surge in applications was followed by another surge when the children of the baby boomers entered college (1990-2005). </p>
<p>In two years, the number of high school graduates is expected to start declining. Perhaps the competition at top colleges will ease a bit, colleges will dip a little lower into the applicant pool, and grades will decline a little. It will be interesting to see if this happens.</p>
<p>Dartmoth students are smarter now then they were back then? What data are you using to come to that conclusion? The other factors that you mention all spell excuses for grade inflation and dummying down of standards, though.</p>
<p>Collegehelp,
Dartmouth Grade inflation has leveled off because </p>
<p>IT CANNOT GO ANY HIGHER. </p>
<p>In order for their GPA to continue increasing, they will have to adopt a 5.0 grading scale. </p>
<p>Where are you getting your Cornell SAT data from? If you take SAT scores from today and subtract ~100 points, you will have the aprox SAT score from 1991. The Princeton review quotes Cornell University SAT scores of 700, 660. This is a combined 1460, or about a 1360 equivalent on the 1990 SAT. A 1350 in 1990 was about average for Cornell. Besides, SAT is only weakly coupled to GPA anyway, so an increase in SAT scores can only be used as justification for grade inflation, not as a cause for higher grades.</p>
<p>tomslawsky-
I took the actual 1986 SAT scores at Cornell that were published in US News Best Colleges and converted them to the current SAT scale using the conversion chart provided in the 1996 edition of US News Best Colleges.</p>
<p>One reason that Cornell has fewer honors graduates than other Ivies is that Cornell has, for example, 20 times more engineering graduates than Harvard.</p>
<p>It would be very interesting to find an SAT test from 1955 or so and give it to a large sample of current college applicants to see how they perform. Surely there must be a copy of an old SAT somewhere. It would make a good senior project for somebody.</p>
<p>I agree that Cornell is much better than most. Being a Science and Math guy myself, I was actually pretty proud that I made it through engineering calculus 3 and actually passed. However, I am positive that I earned my C+, which makes it an accomplishment to me.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think your list is fairly close for rigor, though why you used Berkeley's engineering program to compare to Swarthmore and Chicago I simply do not know. I can assure you that the average student at Berkeley can find a way to get through without working very hard at all.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Isn't it exactly the reason why I specifically mentioned engineering when I included Berkeley in my list?! Berkeley engineering program, esp. EECS, is very rigorous and possibly tougher than any program offered at Chicago. Cornell too is also pretty rigorous for its engineering program, while its other majors' difficulty is more or less on par with Chicago.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think your list is fairly close for rigor, though why you used Berkeley's engineering program to compare to Swarthmore and Chicago I simply do not know. I can assure you that the average student at Berkeley can find a way to get through without working very hard at all.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's the average student's goal in life. I know himher. Nice person.</p>