<p>CYKLOPZ22, hurray for you. Your wonderful experience exactly illustrates my objection to the OP's methods. They severely limited their student's choices upfront. We should never to that because we cannot know what wonderfully serendipitous gift awaits around the corner. You took the leap and were blessed beyond your wildest dreams.</p>
<p>I wish the OP's student had been able to be open tto that possibility too.</p>
<p>God luck at Cornell. While I was a grad student there and the experience is quite different, I am quite certain that you will love your experiences there both in and out of the classroom.</p>
<p>According to CYCLOPZ, "... not much money in my family though. In actuality, my parents have very little money to support themselves and me, their youngest of 4 (ages 22, 27, 30). "</p>
<p>I think the OP was talking about academic merit "scholarships". Maybe CYCLOPZ received enough need based financial aid to pay for Cornell.</p>
<p>According to this, "National Scholars receive up to $4,000 per year, depending on financial-aid eligibility, and can also apply for a one-time grant of up to $3,000 to support a summer internship in the nonprofit sector or in a career-related field."</p>
<p>Without additional financial aid, this would not be considered a full scholarship by any stretch.</p>
<p>I agree 1sokkermom That is how it looked to me, also. Since it is a need based program , but you have to have need as found by the school. This a very good example of preferential packaging of need based aid to attract and ultimately enroll high quaility applicants (merit within need). But , if your family has an EFC higher than the total COA, this does you no good at all. (You'd probably still get the internsip $3K).</p>
<p>Original post by Originaloog:
"CYKLOPZ22, hurray for you. Your wonderful experience exactly illustrates my objection to the OP's methods. They severely limited their student's choices upfront. We should never to that because we cannot know what wonderfully serendipitous gift awaits around the corner. You took the leap and were blessed beyond your wildest dreams."</p>
<p>Not opposed to taking a leap of faith always a good idea; but only as long as everyone understands that the results may be different than hoped for. As long as applications are done with the understanding that attendance is based on the original numbers agreed upon between the parents and students. Otherwise unrealistic expectations have the potential of causing serious misunderstandings. Fortunately it seems to have worked for CYKLOPZ22 but I doubt his experience is in the majority. It is about opportunity he worked at taking advantage of it which was my original point.</p>
<p>Original post by Cur:
"I agree 1sokkermom That is how it looked to me, also. Since it is a need based program , but you have to have need as found by the school. This a very good example of preferential packaging of need based aid to attract and ultimately enroll high quaility applicants (merit within need). But , if your family has an EFC higher than the total COA, this does you no good at all. (You'd probably still get the internsip $3K)."</p>
<p>There is no question that a combo of need based merit aid is often used to attract applicants that schools really want. Merit within need is absolutely a fact of life in todays admission process. In the total financial package, schools have a great deal of leeway in determining the calculation of your contribution. Not only in the total amount, but the composition of the sum. Loans or grants big difference. There usually is also a number of non-designated merit/need programs that have minimal guidelines as to how they are awarded. Info about these types of programs is seldom published and not easy to come by. Financial aid people can be very creative when they want to be. Cur speaking from personal experience school now costs us a lot less than our EFC.</p>
<p>Third tier scholarships aren't always easy to get! I applied and was accepted with merit aid to schools ranging from #37 to thierd tier. In some cases, the first tier scholarships were actually easier and required less effort. In fact, the only scholarship I had to interview for (one I thought required an interview, but I got money without it-- it was a portfilo award so thazt may have had something to do with it) and consequently, the scholarship I was happiest to get. I felt I worked the hardest for it (flying in for an interview, seperate app).</p>
<p>Additionally, the average stats are nothing to sneeze at this scholarship. The finalists (NOT the awardees, just those who made the interview cut) for the class before mine had a average 31 ACT, 1380 old SAT, and 3.97 UNWEIGHTED (out of 4) GPA. And this was for a third tier school!</p>
<p>Some families can't afford to pay ANY of the tuition and other costs nowadays for colleges. For some people, it's hard to believe that a lower-echelon family (in terms of money) can produce a stellar student, but it's true, so don't make anyone feel bad about not contributing to their children's college, some honestly need to keep a roof over their heads. Why risk it when you can get merit/need aid?</p>
<p>I've been shocked to learn that some of my middle class friends' EFC is the full cost of college, E.g., $80,000 per year for two kids. Almost no one can afford that.</p>
<p>As an undergraduate, I went to Antioch College, The U. of Minnesota and Cornell U. I had excellent classes with great profs at all three places (some incredible, some just good). A motivated student can achieve a great outcome in a wide variety of places. I started class discussions in classrooms with 800 students. Parents shouldn't have to feel bad about not mortgaging their own futures to pay for a "dream school" for their kids.</p>
<p>That is because the EFC methodology is flawed. </p>
<p>First, it doesn't really take into account that "middle class income" is quite high in various areas of the country since housing can be ridiculously expensive for just a modest home. </p>
<p>Secondly, it acts as if a family has always had or has "long had" such an income (when, in reality, 'mom" may have recently returned to work, or "dad" may have recently received a big promotion after going to night school for years to get that MBA or whatever.) </p>
<p>Thirdly, since it makes this wrong-headed assumption, it assumes that the family should have had enuf discretionary income over the years to have saved most/much/all of the college costs - which certainly isn't true if the family lived on a shoestring while mom was home with the kids, and only recently returned to work and her income is being used to pay for all the housing repairs that had to ignored when there wasn't any "extra" money. Often, when a "stay at home mom" goes back to work, her income helps pay for the roof that has been leaking for years, start a long-delayed savings acct for future retirement, or to replace a car that is old and unreliable. In such a situation, a mom's "new income" or a dad's "promotion money" is not 100% available for tuition costs. Those dollars are already legitimately "spoken for" and are not being spent on frivolous luxuries instead of tuition.</p>
<p>Lastly, the process "insists" (altho it can't "force") parents who are still married to each other be expected to pay their EFC (based on their current income) for Junior's college, but it doesn't similarly "insist" that non-custodial parent be expected to pay - even if he is a wealthy surgeon, trial lawyer, or business owner. (In some such cases, the low income custodial mom's EFC is so low, that the child can go to college for nearly free, while the intact family of two teachers (where one has only recently been employed) are expected to "suck it up" and pay.) Ridiculous!</p>
<p>I have to think the system is really flawed. Years ago, some friends said they weren't going to save money for their kids' college education because it would all be taken and they'd get less financial aid if they had savings. This has turned out to be the case. My family is ok, but I'm concerned about how this is affecting our friends.</p>
<p>I concur with the idea of finishing undergrad school with zero debt. My parents generously sent all of us kids to premiere out of state schools for undergrad. By the time I finished, the well was dry. I went to grad school at night while working (my company paid), but it wasn't fun. Working 50 hours a week and then busting your behind doing schoolwork every night and weekend is a drag. Talk about quality of life issues! I appreciate my folk's generosity, but with my own kids, I'm holding back something for their graduate education. If they want to work and go to school, fine, but I wouldn't want that to be their only option. Looking back now, I'd rather have stayed in state and then gone OOS to graduate school. As it was, my grad school education, because of location, ended up being at a third tier school. I would have prefered the cadillac school to be the last one on my resume instead of the first.</p>
<p>I have not read all of the posts in this thread, but what I did read made it sound as though all parents have the 'option' of paying for an expensive college.</p>
<p>I would just like to comment that for some families, a 'free ride' may be the only option. Many families don't qualify for grants but neither can they afford to pay for college. And not everyone wants to go so deeply into debt.</p>
<p>Or maybe, as in our case, the kid can choose between a free ride with a car, or we pay for the college and he doesn't get a car.</p>
<p>It seems that, since everyone on this forum is getting their kids into college one way or another, that there isn't much basis for comparison. I know people whose kids are not going to college at all, for a variety of reasons including lack of support and encouragement, not just lack of income. Some of these bright kids would be thankful to go to ANY college!</p>
<p>"it assumes that the family should have had enuf discretionary income over the years to have saved most/much/all of the college costs - which certainly isn't true if the family lived on a shoestring while mom was home with the kids, and only recently returned to work and her income is being used to pay for all the housing repairs that had to ignored when there wasn't any "extra" money..."</p>
<p>"They severely limited their student's choices upfront. We should never to that because we cannot know what wonderfully serendipitous gift awaits around the corner. You took the leap and were blessed beyond your wildest dreams."</p>
<p>I was guilty of that too, out of ignorance. I told my son to only consider state colleges when I saw how much more expensive the costs were for out-of-state and privates. It wasn't because I didn't care about his dreams, but I was just being pragmatic, in the same way that I told him he could get a Toyota or a Honda but not a Lexus or BMW. Not everyone has the luxury of such choices.</p>
<p>It was only recently that I discovered that there might actually be a way for him to attend a more expensive school. What opened my eyes was being on this forum - thanks to everyone! Also, last week he got an offer in the mail for a full tuition to a very good school out-of-state, due to his National Hispanic Scholar status. Discussion on this forum then led me to realize that he should shop around more before jumping at that opportunity.</p>
<p>Suddenly, a whole new world of options has opened up! We are having fun reading the reviews of colleges and narrowing down the list to the ones he wants to apply for. The one that he got the offer for is not at the very top of his list, but it is definitely in the running. He would not choose it just because it's free; for example, if it were a school that is obviously a bad match, he wouldn't accept it any more than he would accept a free steak dinner (he is a vegetarian). But, it's not a 'bad' match, so it is definitely worth considering, and the fact that it's free is definitely a major factor. He completely understands that some of those on the list may not work out if he doesn't get the financial aid, but there is no harm in pursuing it! and maybe, just maybe, more doors will open that we didn't know were there!</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I've attended a state flagship U as well as a LAC and also Cornell U. and they were all good educationally, maybe because I wanted to be educated, and:</p></li>
<li><p>The economic climate right now for the middle class with income above $40,000-$60,000 is awful. Most kids with parents in this category are in rough shape unless they do incredible research to find merit aid somewhere, because need-based aid they may not get. There probably are exceptions, but in general, it sounds like people shouldn't save for college and maybe one parent should stop working if they want to get need-based aid. Most families with a comfortable income can't afford tens of thousands of $$ a year for college expenses. And parents should not feel they have to borrow themselves into bankruptcy to send their kids to school.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>There is something wrong with the way EFC is calculated and there is something wrong with parents (and kids--but where do you think the kids get this message?) believing there are 5 or 10 or 20 acceptable schools...or even 100.</p>
<p>I completely agree with you! Even the schools at the top of my son's list are not on that top 100, I don't think. Well 1 is, but not the others. We're going by whether it's a good fit for him, not whether it is elite.</p>
<p>Lealdragon, Congratulations to your son for all of the wonderful options he has. You are absolutely right in saying that families should keep their minds open to many possibilities including private schools that are definitely out of range becaouse of the sticker price. It does take alot of research and time to research and pursue all of the possibilities out there, but it can be well worth while.</p>
<p>However, sometimes, actually, often, as Bethievt is saying, there are not that many options once the chips fall into place. If a parent runs the numbers through the FA calculators and the results are no where close to what the family can cough up, that is a reality that needs to be faced. Yes, if the kid is a top, top candidate at a particular school that is not ultra selective, or has something that a college really wants, there is play in those numbers, but the plain,old midrange student just isn't going to get too much in the way of surprises here. Not to say he should not try a few possibilities, but no way should he count on it. Looking for several financial safeties that the family can afford becomes a high priority in picking schools for the college list. Then he can augment the list with the wish schools all he wants. But once all the decisions are in and the financial aid/scholarship packages completed, the choices may be among those safeties, and it is tough coming up with even a handful of those choices, and many times none of them are a "love thy safety" school when you have tho throw in the financial aspect. </p>
<p>Most kids in the US do NOT go away to college, DO work their way through college, often taking classes part time and do NOT have a continuous college career. They do NOT get full aid, and borrow, work and their parents often put themselves on a financial limb to get a term done for their students. Most merit awards are just teasers that bring the price down only a bit--$5k just isn't going to do it on a $45K+ bill. Even those who qualify for a full federal package, are not likely to get enough money for school. When we talk about most generous financial aid packages,we are talking about the minority of students, the cream of the crop, even , actually, especially in the low income brackets.</p>
<p>That's what bothers me. I'm trying to find a financial safety for my son's best friend. His parents have worked themselves into a position of having two good jobs and they bought a run-down house and fixed it up, so they now have an expensive house (because every house here is now expensive) with no mortgage. Not a tragedy, because he can go to flagship U., but he doesn't want to go there. I'm sure he'll adjust, if I don't find him options,but I do find it odd that this whole class of kids is almost without options.</p>