<p>MomfromTexas-
I thank you for sharing your extensive research.
Can't understand some posters' bashing of the approach you presented.
I've always found CC to be a place that folks could share DIVERSE opinions in an adult, constructive manner. Sorry that you experienced a bit of different response to your thoughtful, useful post.</p>
<p>I didn't get any sense from your OP that you were FORCING us all to employ a method that happened to work well for your family. I think for families just starting the process, it provides invaluable help.</p>
<p>It also provides a balance. Some families can or choose to fund whatever expense for their child's education, no matter the cost. For us, that is not possible. Our son is a college sophomore. We gladly pay the EFC (and a bit more), he takes Stafford loans. It's a joint adventure. We live frugally in a high cost state and need to provide for another (disabled) child and perhaps a modest retirement someday.
To mortgage a family's entire life to provide for the education of one child is scary to me. For some families, it's their priority.
I'm glad you posted!!!</p>
<p>MomfromTexas, Thank you!
We're just beginning this process (D is soph) and information and suggestions from ALL perspectives are welcomed with an open mind.</p>
<p>Ditto Kate -- I just came to this thread and cannot believe how much crap the OP got simply for wanting to share her family's experience and make helpful suggestions to those who (for WHATEVER reason -- it's none of my damn business) consider significant merit aid an important criteria. Can't be challenged at a fourth tier school -- give me a break.</p>
<p>Another 'thank you' to Momfromtexas for pointing out yet another avenue kids/families can take when looking for a school.</p>
<p>I don't understand the criticisms/attacks. Look at the qualifications of the faculty at any college in this country and you'll find highly qualified teachers. The pool of students may differ, but that can be an opportunity for a student to really shine and get a leg up on the next phase of their education. It's a viable choice for many students.</p>
<p>This is the classic dilemma, full-pay at a higher ranked school vs. free ride at a lower ranked school.</p>
<p>At the first, in each classroom your kid is one of the least smart in the room, at the latter, one of the most smart. So the trade off is the rank of the school versus the rank of your kid within the school. Is it better to be below average at higher ranked school, or above average at a lower ranked school? (Only at Lake Woebegone U. are all kids above average.)</p>
<p>Let's say your kid is taking Physics. At Higher Ranked U., your kid is mixed in with future Nobel Prize winners in a class taught by last year's Nobel Prize winner, and struggling. At Lower Ranked U., your kid is the leader of his lab group, does all the extra credit work assigned, and is one of the prof's favorites who stays after class to continue the discussion. Where does your kid have increased opportunity? Will your kid learn more at either, or will he just learn as much as he can which is the same at either school?</p>
<p>More to the issue at hand, are the answers to those questions so indisputably clear that one should pay up to $40,000 a year more to be lower individually-ranked at the higher ranked school? We are talking about plunking down the cost of a brand new luxury SUV every year, for four to five years, for each kid in the family.</p>
<p>Compelling arguments can be made for both cases. However, since one route is expensive and other free, the burden of persuasion is on the higher ranked school proponents.</p>
<p>I also don't understand the criticim; viable choices in educating our children differ from family to family. There are many good schools listed on the so called third and fourth tier listings and the right fit for one child is not neccessarily the right fit for all kids. In the end I have not heard one patient ask me what Nursing school I graduated from nor have any of the patients asked their docs what their qualifications are, their mcap scores were or what their ranking in school was.</p>
<p>My son has accepted a full ride that also includes a stipend at a school that most CC's would scoff at but it is a solid school, has a good honors program and is small enough that my son feels comfortable. He has withdrawn applications from private universities and is thrilled with his choice.</p>
<p>He is happy and to me that is all that matters.</p>
<p>MomfromTexas, you've got my thanks, as well. Most CC topics deal with ultra-selective schools, and it's easy to lose sight of the fact that many kids in this country would be THRILLED to attend a 3rd or 4th tier school at no cost. Not all families are fortunate enough to be struggling with the "$50K for the Ivy or $50K for the retirement fund?" dilemma. </p>
<p>dt123's hypothetical situation above interests me. At a certain point, isn't introductory physics going to be introductory physics wherever one attends? Particularly regarding undergraduate math, engineering, and science-related subjects - how much difference does the brilliance of the instructor and one's classmates make? Organic chemistry is the same set of concepts whether you're at Whossamatta U or Princeton, isn't it? Of course it's wonderful to be taught by the very best - but are you necessarily a poorer physician in later life for having been taught molecular bio at a large state U rather than by a Nobel laureate? (And how many of them are really instructing undergrads?) </p>
<p>We've all heard that one of the irreplaceable elements of an education at a mega-elite school is the quality of the student's peers, and that that's certainly a viable viewpoint. But life is complicated, and brilliant people don't always wind up where you'd think.</p>
<p>MomfromTexas-Congrats for finding a way to make college a reality for your kids. It sounds like you have put in alot of research to find the best opportunities for your family. Rankings rarely tell the whole story of what any given college has to offer and each individual student has different needs that can be filled in different ways. Your kids have bright futures ahead of them.</p>
<p>Thank you for your generosity in sharing your family's story to help others in their quest. Well done.</p>
<p>I do see some schools offering full rides, however get it in writing up front/make sure that it is recurring aid, because I have also seen a full ride or almost offer freshman year, go down considerably for subsequent years
Once the student is attending, the school perhaps loses motivation to keep them there?</p>
<p>Organic chemistry is the same set of concepts whether you're at Whossamatta U or Princeton, isn't it?</p>
<p>funny you should ask that
My daughter took OChem at a community college, with a fairly strong set of instructors. She was having to replace spring semester Ochem at Reed which although she worked very hard,( and the professor agrees that she worked very hard) she did not pass.
The classes were quite different, the labs were different, the text was different ( the Reed text having been written by the instructor), even the protocol in class was different because the CC class did not have the same access to materials that the Reed course had. A class that costs $1,000 is going to have some differences than a class that costs $10,000- otherwise wouldn't we all be going to CCs to save money?
Since she ended up taking a full year Ochem at Reed and a full year Ochem at the CC, she ended up with the background she needed, but if she had only taken the CC course she would not have.</p>
<p>* by the background she needed- I meant to take further courses at Reed= it is probable that if she hadn't been going back to Reed but to a less intense college, then the OChem at the CC would have been fine*</p>
<p>MomfromTexas--thanks for sharing. I think it is great information that you have shared, esp. that one of your son's SAT's was not sky high and you still found a full ride for him. That is great! There are kids, even here on CC, whose parents aren't going to be able to pay much, if anything, for various reasons, so this is one more thing for these kids to look at, and may be better than going the community college then transfer and take out huge loans route which many are assuming is their only option. I, for one, was totally unaware of some of the great programs (full rides/honors progs) that some of the Cal States offer until a couple of years ago when we started getting some mail. My S did not go that route, but just knowing those programs are out there makes me feel less anxious, since I have three more to go--just good to know there are options out there at no or low cost.</p>
<p>It would be helpful for me if we could clarify what a full ride means
There are so many different levels- a real full ride to me suggests no loans,, total grants including room and board. ( which is what my niece received her first year at Colgate- 2nd year loans were added)
There are then schools that meet 100% of need but is it a full ride if some of that is loans?
Then there are schools like the honors programs where students are given a scholarship for tuition and a stipend for books but room and board isn't covered. ( since room and board then needs to be claimed as income if it is offered)
So many categories.</p>
My sentiments exactly. MomfromTexas, thank you for sharing this valuable experience and guidance. </p>
<p>The blanket statement (from an 18-year old with <em>so</em> much experience btw) that a 1410 SAT kid cannot be challenged at a tier 4 school is worth exactly what we paid for it: 0.</p>
<p>People, people, people - how can you jump on the OP's generous post? Each student can determine for him or herself which schools will provide the right atmosphere, sufficient challenge etc. Of one thing you can be certain - state schools will have students at all levels of ability, including the tippy-top. They exist to serve their state's populace, including high achieving students who choose to or need to stay close to home.</p>
<p>It's ALL about fit, which includes financial fit. Props to texmom if it works for thier family. The opposite of props to those who criticize that family's individual choice.</p>
<p>cur:</p>
<p>had simlilar financial discussion with a friend yesterday....S is jr at one of the top high school's in Calif with 4.0/2400/800/800/800, 10 APs (all 5's so far). state honors musician, etc. etc. Also, looking at 8 yr med programs - unfortunately, do to cultural issues, the family (NOT the kid, who I have spoken to privately) are prestige wh***s....thus, only top 10 schools will do, but they are whining that top 10 schools don't gives out merit money. Duh! But, I tried to explain, even a grad of Tech Tech is called "Doctor" at the end of the day, and starting out a career debt free is worth a LOT.</p>
<p>For the record, USN&WR Tiers 1&2 consist of the 100 top ranked national univerities. There are 120 of these due to ties in the rankings. Tiers 3 and 4 consist of about 60 schools each ranked just below these. That is a total of 240 schools. There are well over 3000 colleges and universities in this country. So for all those obsessed with being "at the top," any kid who attends a Tier 4 school is attending one of the top 10% of colleges in this country.</p>
<p>There are many elements to success in life. Blind obsession with rankings is unlikely to be one of them. Inability to see the value in another's point of view is even less likely to lead to success. Put-downs of someone who attends a "lesser" university than you? Off the charts.</p>
<p>MomfromTex, an added advantage of your approach is the fact that your student will be a big fish in a small pond. If he continues to focus on his academics he should graduate near the top of his class with high Latin honors.</p>
<p>I also do not buy the argument that he will not be challenged academically. If he is in a university honors program he will likely be able to work with a professor in his/her research group, he will likely be able to take graduate level coursework as early as junior year, and if he chooses wisely, he will be able to take challenging, interesting and unusual electives. Me, I took Serbo-Croatian literature and a sociology course in cybernetics among many others which were wonderful learning opportunities.</p>
<p>overseas, your remark (post #26) is so true. Many fields are so tight for professors right now, and Harvard/Chicago/Penn grads are fighting to get those jobs at 3/4 tier schools! Also, when one looks at where professors at a "top" university did their undergrad, many are surprised. My Writing professor did her undergrad at UNM (3rd tier school). She's an absolute genius in her field and the best professor I've had so far.</p>