<p>If my S had wanted MD for sure, there is a wonderful program at U of Miami that is 6 years. Miami also has an MD/PhD program. Scholarships for merit range depending on the child's stats. However, S has his eyes on the PhD route and would not apply</p>
<p>I always like to CHOOSE how to do things, so I appreciate hearing all options. My mom attended a lower ranked college (on a full ride) and now has 2 master degrees beyond that. She was very successful as a elem school teacher, college professor and school principal... </p>
<p>I do think there are differences in levels of teaching at different schools. I'm not sure if this is only tier related, though - big schools with top ratings could be a bad fit for someone that needs small classrooms and accessible teachers (regardless of rank)... I attended several colleges, through exchange programs, and I saw wide variety in difficulty. Some of the lower tiered college classes seemed easier than my HS classes and didn't cover as much material as I needed (when I returned to my host college, I had to take additional classes to fill in the gaps). Same situation in HS classes - many people with kids in regular college prep courses truly believed their kids learned as much as those in AP classes (after all, biology is biology) and that certainly was not true in most cases in our HS... My niece found that her science classes (at a top LAC) really did not prepare her adequately for the MCATs even though she earned As. She wound up doing a post-grad yr and even then she struggled. </p>
<p>But very few kids are heading to medical school (or other demanding grad work) and for many majors, it probably doesn't matter where you take your classes. The degree is just there to open doors to the job and the student will learn the rest on the job. An honors program anywhere should teach a kid how to learn, which is the most important piece. In an honors pgm, the student will also be surrounded by other kids who want to learn - another important thing. But at some schools an honors pgm only means that kids take one honors class/semester together. </p>
<p>So I think a lot depends on the student involved - his intended major, and academic "fit" and the social "fit." Does he like to be "the big fish in the small pond" or just the opposite? If a kid feels out of place, he will be miserable. </p>
<p>My freshman d goes to a private school for the cost of our state u (due to a scholarship & grants). She didn't want a super competitive academic environment but did want a strong dept in her major. I'm just starting this process with my s (HS junior). He prefers to be challenged by both his teachers and the other students in his classes. He plans to do med school or med research. But, money is an issue (we are not able/willing to pay $40-45,000 per yr), since I have a 3rd child to consider. Bookworm, I will make sure UMiami goes on his list to check into (thanks for the suggestion).</p>
<p>Every decision is personal and depends on the circumstances. I appreciate all suggestions.</p>
<p>Although most of the posters are praising the OP for her decisions, how many of you or your sons and daughters have actually followed the similar path of choosing a less prestigious, 3rd or 4th-tiered school over a prestigious one for financial reasons?</p>
<p>I also don't agree with dt123's analogy in post # 45.</p>
<p>"Let's say your kid is taking Physics. At Higher Ranked U., your kid is mixed in with future Nobel Prize winners in a class taught by last year's Nobel Prize winner, and struggling. At Lower Ranked U., your kid is the leader of his lab group, does all the extra credit work assigned, and is one of the prof's favorites who stays after class to continue the discussion. Where does your kid have increased opportunity? Will your kid learn more at either, or will he just learn as much as he can which is the same at either school?"</p>
<p>First of all, in a situation like this, you could be doing well in both schools and taking advantage of the resources in both. Just because you go to a top-tiered school, it doesn't mean that you have to be a mediocre student. Likewise, going to a less prestigious school does not guarantee that you'll have a better rapport with the professors. In both situations, it's up to you to use your resources.</p>
<p>In addition, if you're struggling in physics in the prestigious school and excelling in physics in the less prestigious one, wouldn't you think that you would be delusional to yourself about your abilities by going to the lesser ranked school? Even if you excelled in the lesser prestigious school, it is most likely that sooner or later that you will realize that although you were once a big fish swimming in a small pond, there is a bigger ocean in the world with a lot bigger fish.</p>
<p>You also have to take into the networking in the top tiered schools.</p>
<p>Ultimately, however, it's really up to the students intellect and drive to succeed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Instead of looking for full ride scholarships from schools, couldn't you apply to scholarships that weren't so restrictive to which school that you must attend? There are a lot of scholarship programs that allow you to use the scholarship money at any college of your choice.
[/quote]
Let me explain this one. Let's say you want to attend a $40K a year school. Your EFC is $20K and you have $20K in independent merit aid. This school meets 100% of demonstrated need. How much is your family going to pay? At Harvard and Yale, your family will pay from $16,500 to $18,000. </p>
<p>Why, with all that merit money do you have to rake up that much? Because the college wants you to pay all you are able before they pay any. At Harvard at least, they credit the portion the child pays, about $3000. The rest they use to reduce the university's grant. The family obligation remains the same.</p>
<p>I know a number of highly successful people that graduated from an unranked regional Texas university. Half of the vice presidents in our company went there. We are the #4 defense contractor in the country.</p>
<p>dstark--the two Cal States that I remember from the mailing deluge a couple of years ago are Fresno and I think CSU Long Beach. I am guessing there are probably a few more. I remember the Fresno one paid for everything, and gave you a lap top computer and had other priveleges too. It was made to sound very attractive in the mailings. Also, I think Hayward State (now known as Cal State East Bay) had something fairly attractive to offer--I think it was called Pioneer scholarships or something like that. Sorry not to be more specific. Just going on memory from what was mailed out a couple of years ago when my 19 year old S was a senior. I just remember being surprised to learn that this stuff was out there, esp. since I already had one in college, but hadn't heard of some of these programs before. Oh, how ignorant I was in those day--before I discovered College Confidential . . . I imagine there are students out there who could take advantage of these programs that just aren't getting the info.</p>
<p>
[quote]
how many of you or your sons and daughters have actually followed the similar path of choosing a less prestigious, 3rd or 4th-tiered school over a prestigious one for financial reasons?
[/quote]
I have a good friend with 3 extremely bright kids who all followed the route of going to lower ranked colleges, though not for financial reasons. What has happened is that her kids are getting through college faster than mine; all started early, some taking college courses while still in high school, and her oldest was working on his master's at a time when most kids his age were still undergrads. I also know a lot of homeschoolers who follow similar routes. </p>
<p>The only thing about this board is that it draws a nonrepresentative segment of families who are intrigued with the process of college selection. So while it is true that CC parents may tend toward the prestige-obsessed (otherwise, why spend all the time here?) ... that probably isn't the norm for the wider world.</p>
<p>Perhaps this post would have been better received under the "Financial Aid" topic -- which probably attracts a somewhat different demographic, even for this board.</p>
<p>mstee and dstark</p>
<p>Funny that you should mention Fresno State. My S just got his acceptance letter today for the President's Honor Scholarship (Smittcamp Honors College) valued at $7,100 per year. It covers tuition, housing and a laptop (but not the meal plan).</p>
<p>Fresnomom, congratulations.</p>
<p>mstee, thanks for the info.</p>
<p>Calmom, I think the tide has turned on this thread.</p>
<p>Congrats Fresnomom! Yes, I think that is the one I remember-- Smittcamp-- rings a bell. Too bad the meals aren't covered, but a pretty good deal, all in all!</p>
<p>Thank you, MomfromTexas, for sharing your method. My junior S scored well enough on the PSAT that I am pretty sure he'll be getting offers for full rides-- he already gets 6 or 7 letters of interest per day. He originally had his sights on the UC system, but has since broadened his scope to out-of-state universities that might be paid for. We don't see undergraduate eduacation as being the end of the road for him, and it would be wonderful to save as much as possible for further studies. It seems like a smart thing to do, and not necessarily a compromise, if he finds a good fit.</p>
<p>Just wanted to point out that the "tier" rankings can be misleading for large state U's. One "3rd tier" university I know of is definitely 1st tier in both the music school and in design, art & architecture, & probably 2nd tier in engineering & business. Bottom line: if a school has the caliber program you want and offers to give it to you for free, strongly consider taking it!</p>
<p>Great job MomfromTexas!!!!</p>
<p>Working on number 4 kiddo now, I have and will continue to follow the same methods for scholarships. Aftering being on this board for 4 plus years I have read much. You eventually get to know what is a keeper and what is junk. Your info makes it into the keeper file!</p>
<p>Thank you for taking the time to post and share your information. That was generous and kind of you to do. And you have responded well to the criticisms. Very graciously. </p>
<p>Kat</p>
<p>momfromtexas,</p>
<p>thank you for taking the time to post. thanks to all the posters who have added their thoughts as well. great thread:)</p>
<p>MFT,</p>
<p>I wanted to add my voice of thanks for posting this. We had done a number of these things ourselves. Thus the reason for the fairly large number of schools my children applied to. It because Reach, Target and Safety with a similar list including merit/100% financial aid schools.</p>
<p>For the person who posted regarding full rides.</p>
<p>My sons' full ride includes, tuition, fees, housing, unlimited meal plan, semester stipend and honors college stipend. I think we do have a dorm deposit which is nominal.</p>
<p>Mom from Texas did us all a favor by reminding us there are many routes to the sheepskin and each student/family must find the way that works for them. My children are 'gifted' and we have prepaid at least 3 yrs of their state college tuition/fees, but if they want a private college education, they will need to earn higher test scores, apply for and win more scholarships or take loans in their own names, take more summer courses locally or work more summer hours, to help gap the difference in cost. I keep reminding them that they also need to consider the costs of their graduate school when we jointly make the decision where they will attend UG school. Mom and dad (we're divorced) are in our 50s and 60s, each with serious health issues and one of us is already drawing a pension and one looking at taking disability; while we can probably meet EFC, we cannot take out loans or borrow against our retirement at this stage. We felt a prepaid education to a top 10 state flagship, with no debt at graduation, is an adequate fulfillment of our obligation to our children. Anything else (the cost of a private OOS college) would be icing and will be provided if economically feasible. I hope my children can attend the (private) colleges of their choice, but I will not lose sleep if they attend their financial safety, the U of ILL.</p>
<p>MomMusic--you might well be describing my alma mater ( U of Cinti), a leader in all the fields you mentioned, as well as good schools of nursing, pharmacy and medicine. I attended as my school's valedictorian (out of 315 students). I thought I was pretty hot till my frosh honors English class, where 11 of the 13 students were valedictorians and the other 2 were salutatorians! Didn't seem very 3rd tier to me!! This school may now be rated overall by USNWR as a 3rd tier school but I had to work for my grades in and out of the honors program and had a couple terms where I didn't make the dean's list. However, I got grad degrees from Case Western Reserve and the U of I, and had a full ride with living stipend from Case, so I don't feel I lost out on anything important by not attending Smith </p>
<p>A good 'name' school may give one a leg up on the first job or even a grad school, but after that it is primarily the student and his/her efforts and abilities, goals, and ethics/personaility, not the UG college name or rank, that determine how that student succeeds in life as well as in career. Also, if one plans to remain in the geographic area served by a regionally ranked school (esp, say, to practice law or accounting in the state where one's state law or business school is located), that school's name and the networking that is possible may be or more importance than the 'name' weight of a national school. </p>
<p>We do often get what we pay for in life, but a college and the value of the education it provides cannot always be judged totally by its cost or its name. And I am glad some parents on CC recognize and value this as so often after reading postings, I feel that I might be cheating my DDsand dooming them to some imagined mediocre future if I don't send them to $40K colleges in the USNW top tier. </p>
<p>I am somewhat following the OP's method by recommending some 3rd tier and regional schools to jr D#1, schools where she exceeds the 75th percentile in scores, that offer honors programs and scholarships that would still require her to stay on her toes, that have interesting and affordable study abroad opportunities, where she would be a bigger fish in a smaller pond. These additional safeties will widen her choices, not narrow them and I think this is a well-rounded approach.</p>
<p>Thanks to all for the interesting responses. Yeah for choice, diversity, and alternate means. I told Son #2 about the number of views and responses I had received, and he was very impressed with his technically challenged mom. </p>
<p>At this point in the awards process, my son will most likely choose a 3rd tier school and he still hasn't received the awards decisions from his merit scholarship reaches yet. I will post the outcome.</p>
<p>MOMFROMTEXAS it certainly sounds like you and your sons have done a wonderful job of achieving a fantastic balance for their future. It does take a whole family to make that happen - and guys that are willing to follow a different route as well.</p>
<p>Good Job - and let us know how all of this goes.</p>
<p>I agree momfromtexas & her family have achieved a great deal & I'm sure put in a LOT of research. It just goes to show that a child doesn't need to be a NMF in order to get an offer for a full-ride, nor an athletic standout. Would love to hear more about your research, especially about your 1st child, as my younger child is likely not to get the 2230 SAT & NMF her brother achieved.</p>
<p>Would love to hear anyone else's constructive thoughts & research as well. I love seeing kids get merit aid so that they have more resources for grad school, housing, and other things--substantial merit aid would really help us have more options. </p>
<p>We let son choose the schools he wanted to apply to but will spend more time & energy guiding younger sister's search because a fit would be more crucial for her. Son can thrive in many different environments.</p>
<p>Circumstances vary.</p>
<p>I'm going to take both "sides" here and probably offend, rather than please, everyone. </p>
<p>First, programs such as Mudge's cited UMSI are golden. And there are many "top" programs such as nautical archaeology at non-first tier schools such Texas A&M or Astronomy at U/Arizona that are compelling. MusicMom also reminds us about music programs, etc. Ordinarily, <em>I</em> would think snotty thoughts about U/Indiana or U/Utah, for instance...but for Music or Dance, respectively, they're both very strong and I wouldn't murmur a word.</p>
<p>Second, in the journey of the exploration of "fit"--see Carolyn's daughter, for instance--where schools that many may have never heard of offer the combination of academic, social, program, etc. attributes that line up perfectly with what the student is looking for.</p>
<p>Next, some financial constraints are very real and those of us who are not so constrained should be silently grateful that we have more options. And where details are omitted for privacy and dignity, I think we need to try to accept the givens as given.</p>
<p>Finally--and I think I have a long enough track record on this board on this subject--obession about prestige is over the top and many of the people so-obsessed need to get a life.</p>
<p>On the other side of the coin, not all that glitters is gold. I've read far too many tales of students who were in one honors program or another and found themselves in far too small an island in far too large a sea. Stories like this are behind any number of transfer applications or unhappy college experiences where the student simply didn't get all that he or she should have out of the experience. It would be imprudent to be totally proscriptive, but I think--when one takes into account both the effect of academic peers <em>and</em> the expectations of professors, it's head-in-the-sand to blithely assume that one can get "just as good an education" at school X or Y as opposed to school A or B. An adequate education, certainly. Just as good...I wouldn't bet on it. [I think most of us see and accept this argument apropos of high schools without much argument...and I see no reason for the argument to go away when transposed to colleges.]</p>
<p>Secondly, I think that graduating from college debt-free is as misplaced a value as prestige whoring. I don't care how much money a student's family has, even if they can calmly write the check for a full ride, there is a value for the student to taking <em>some</em> of the financial investment in their own education, including working a few hours/week during the school year, more during the summer if not on internships, and taking out the minimal-in-the-scheme-of-things Stafford loans or an equivalent up to $12-14K for four years of college. This amount of debt will not particularly crimp them when it comes to consideration of either grad school or career.</p>
<p>Finally, the OP's original post is something of a Rohrshach test in which different readers see different things. It <em>can</em> be read with disquieting effect in that there is <em>no</em> mention of "fit" in any other dimension. [I just re-read it for the sixth time to make sure.]In that respect, it's a stark contrast to Mudge's carefully annotated saga, which is "fit"-centric that includes a high "financial aid" component but not a declaration of wanting to pay zero. One could take the post at face value with good intentions or one could just as easily read it, fairly, wondering whether the OP was trying to game the system where "paying zero"--as opposed to paying even a small amount--was the sole criterion.</p>
<p>The absence of any other consideration of fit makes this:
[quote]
If it is the right thing to do to send you child to U Texas El Paso on a football scholarship, do it. If it is the right thing to do to send your child to a 4th tier honors college because it's the right thing to do for your child, do it. If having the child take on such enormous debt that it would hobble her future, don't do it.</p>
<p>If you are so into parents' life style or finances in some other way that you send your child to an inappropriately unchallenging college to save a few bucks, even covering the room and board of supporting her at home, you have values that should be acknowledged as such.
[/quote]
a perfectly reasonable, if perhaps impolitic, response: it acknowledged that the decision could be reasonable or not based on further information.</p>