<p>JEM, thank you for the link to that excellent article. :-)
And kudos to the OP of this thread!</p>
<p>Speaking from personal experience, my B.A. and M.S. came from a university that is nowhere near 1st tier, although my ACT/SAT scores were in the 1st tier range of competitiveness. My family situation (financial and otherwise) simply precluded the possibility of going to a "name-brand" school. This has not caused any difficulty in employment in my field.</p>
<p>MomFromTexas:
Thank you for taking the trouble to post your observations.</p>
<p>And for those who don't necessarily agree with her observations - people, a little civility, please. Post your opposing view, by all means - but with less of an in<em>your</em>face attitude, if you don't mind.</p>
<p>Mom From Texas--
I for one would welcome any additional information that you can provide and I am grateful for the information that you posted. Please email or PM me if you have more info to share. My son is an 11th grader, and I am just beginning to understand the financial challenges I am facing.</p>
<p>Having earned degrees from both an ivy and a 4th tier state school, I am baffled by the response to your original post. I had both wonderful and mediocre teachers at both types of schools. And I had some brilliant peers and some classmates who couldn't keep up at both types of schools. And I got an excellent education in both places. </p>
<p>There is no question that prestige matters in some fields in terms of later employment prospects. But going to a no name public undergrad school didn't seem to hurt my acceptance to an ivy graduate school or my later employment.</p>
<p>Seems to me, that the right fit for each student and each family's circumstances is what really matters.</p>
<p>jmmom wrote:
[quote]
For the record, USN&WR Tiers 1&2 consist of the 100 top ranked national univerities. There are 120 of these due to ties in the rankings. Tiers 3 and 4 consist of about 60 schools each ranked just below these. That is a total of 240 schools. There are well over 3000 colleges and universities in this country. So for all those obsessed with being "at the top," any kid who attends a Tier 4 school is attending one of the top 10% of colleges in this country.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Out of curiosity, I looked up my alma mater plus the school my D will attend next year. My school is "Tier 4" and hers is "Tier 3". (Altho I'm aware of the stats and local reputation of the school my D chose, we hadn't put it in the context of 'tier-ness'.) </p>
<p>It's nice to know that the local state U I attended, and that's never mentioned on CC, is still top 10%.</p>
<p>Kudos to the OP...</p>
<p>More to think about:
3rd and 4th tier will often award AP credit where 1st and 2nd will not. With regard to the two AP English courses this allows the student to skip first year college English courses (which can be a bore for a well-read student). Combine that with honors college opportunities and a student starts his/her college years with a leg up.</p>
<p>If the student and family has benefited from a "free" undergrad scholarship, there are untapped resources available to fund a grad degree, whether in the form of cash or loan potential that would have been spent on the undergrad degree.</p>
<p>baseballmom,</p>
<p>On other threads many posters have gone back and forth about APs and how to use them. Some advocating the acceleration of getting a degree where others think that it is more important to go to college for 4 years. For me, most schools have 5 year masters programs. I would suggest that a student attend for 4 years but get thier masters in that time. The best of both worlds.</p>
<p>As with this topic the solution is student specific and needs be made in the context of that particular student. However, it is important to bring this component into the financing and graduation education. Thanks for the post!</p>
<p>Eagle79-
I never gave much thought to early graduation. I view AP application as giving the student the option to take courses beyond the usual within the 4 years.</p>
<p>It's refreshing to talk about a new range of schools on CC!</p>
<p>S1 is in the NROTC program at our state university. NROTC adds 3 extra hours to the courseload every semester plus requiring 2 semesters of physics not required by his major. If not for all his AP credits, he would probably have to take an extra semester of school just to get everything in. Going in with 20 hours of AP credit has given him a little breathing room and will allow him to graduate in 4 years.</p>
<p>As a parent and an academic, I find CC a fascinating study in Sociology, Economics, Psychology, etc. Wish some legislators would read these.... Or maybe not! I taught (university level) and studied on three continents, and I am the parent of a college student too. I had a chance to evaluate grad school applications, prestigious scholarship applications, assisted in mock interviews for Medical School applicants, and one thing I know is that in all cases, what seems to matter (and help the applicant) most is the degree and quality of interaction with faculty. Why? because undergraduate research is a very important component (the more, the better!), and, of course, the type of letter of recommendation that a research advisor can write is no match for letters coming from teaching faculty. So, how is that relevant? It means that one should look for schools that:
1. Have significant research going on (LACs have the small classes and the faculty involvement, but may have some tiny science departments with few faculty/research areas to choose from; big Research Us will always have huge departments with lots of faculty and many research areas!)
2. Have special programs that encourage and support undergraduate research (that's where honors colleges/programs become sooooo enticing; remeber that schools like Penn have an Honors program too, it's just so hard to get in it!)
3. Allow the student enough financial peace of mind (i.e. give a lot of merit/need aid) so she can pursue unpaid research/internships/volunteer experiences and not worry about the summer job that may help pay the bill.</p>
<p>Almost any student who wins a scholarship like NSF fellowships, Goldwater, Astronaut, Mellon, etc. can pretty much write their own ticket to any top graduate program. How does one win these? Undergraduate research, strong faculty involvement. Where is it easier to get nominated? At MIT or a tier 2-3 Research U where the student is a star AND has a chance to work with a star professor (educated at... MIT)? And, as somebody else said before, it will be the last degree that matters most (although, we can talk about that, too!)
What can a parent do? Obviously, finacial decisions will ultimately be made based on individual circumstances, but if a family has money to spend on college education, I truly believe that the money could be better spent in supporting (and paying) one's child experiential learning endeavors that could place them at the top.</p>
<p>Given the theme of this thread, I'd be curious as to thoughts about the service academies. I know they aren't for everyone. I know why many apply and choose them over civilian schools My S is a plebe at one right now. But I'm interested in why many choose not to, and how much of that decision is based on conjecture and how much is based on looking into the academies and deciding they are not a fit.</p>
<p>my nephew applied to the Air force academy and didn't get in
he was admitted to Duke but turned it down for a huge scholarship at U colorado boulder.</p>
<p>While both of my girls perhaps would have done well in a more structured setting like a military academy,but neither is interested in military training, and probably would not qualify given their learning differences</p>
<p>Mitica - I'm trying to do the math and figure out how it is that 100% of college-bound students can choose educational paths that will place them "at the top". </p>
<p>As strange at it may seem to you and other CC'ers, there are many families who simply don't view education as a competitive endeavor.</p>
<p>My kids would not be able to handle the physical rigors of a military academy or military training, so it's never been a consideration--they would probably be medically rejected even if they tried to enlist. My husband tried to enlist for Vietnam & was rejected for flat feet.<br>
Military academies are a great value for the right students. A friend's daughter got a wonderful education at the military academy in Colorado Springs. She's the swim coach there now & her husband is teaching students to be pilots there.</p>
<p>The 58-year old in my family and his best friend were both into avaition as high-school kids. One went to the Air Force Academy and got a good education, if not the most broadening one. He flew fighter jets and had a good tour of duty in Viet Nam but unfortunately died afterwards in an aviation accident.</p>
<p>The other one was offered a Naval ROTC scholarship, full ride including room and board plus a stipend to any college in the country. He turned it down at the last minute when he first failed a flight vision test (tougher then than now, I think). He got a full ride civilian scholarship, went to a great college and has lived happily ever after. Your mileage may vary.</p>
<p>Amen Mitica..it was my D's research experience (through Honor's Thesis) and the mentor's she worked with that got her into the Grad School of her choice..even though she was at what's considered here at CC as a 4th tier Public U. She literally was the star of the music history dept and all faculty were eager to work with her and support her grad school quest.Everyone knew someone else,she was introduced around,excellent recc letters were written and phone calls were made on her behalf.
Don't forget those esteemed faculty work everywhere that jobs are available..not only at the Ivy's.D worked with 2 women especially that had reasons to be teaching at the U..one for her partner's needs(he was hired at the music school for a high level position,she followed), one b/c she wanted to live and teach in a southwestern desert setting.</p>
<p>I just tried to compare the opportunities available at different schools, the "bang for the money" factor that was discussed. One of the most stated (or not) reasons why people choose to pay for the best schools is to give kids a chance to compete, isn't it?</p>
<p>But even for the non-competitve students, or for the students who want a job (a good, meaningful one) right out of college, it is still important to have access to experiential learning, the stuff learned OUTSIDE the classroom, through internship, volunteerism and research. And for these kids, one of the most relevant characteristics of the school becomes location, loctation, location. And again, most big Research Us tend to be located in metropolitan areas. Obviously, this is not the best route for everyone; all I am trying to say is big Us are a very interesting "academic ecosystem" which houses a surprisingly talented mix of people and centers of excellence. How about U Iowa's Creative Writing program? How about UC Santa Barbara strong physics/chemistry (Nobel Prize and everything)? How many parents would brag about their daughter getting into U Iowa? And on it goes... And if a talented student gets more scholarship money, more attention and more access in these places, how is that wrong? We are, after all, the Millenial parents, and our kids listen. If our message is Ivy+top 10+the private/expensive schools are good, and the rest are bad, we are not doing them a service...</p>
<p>re: military academies</p>
<p>In college handbooks like Fiske there is a statistic for grads' employment rate after graduation. For the military academies it is always 100%.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Given the theme of this thread, I'd be curious as to thoughts about the service academies. I know they aren't for everyone. I know why many apply and choose them over civilian schools My S is a plebe at one right now. But I'm interested in why many choose not to, and how much of that decision is based on conjecture and how much is based on looking into the academies and deciding they are not a fit.
[/quote]
LOL! I KNOW they are not a fit. DS can't get his butt out of bed before noon, and he does not like being told what to do!!!! ;)</p>
<p>Mine was solicited to apply by the Air Force academy, probably the single most errant marketing decision they ever made. she's not athletic in the conventional sense, really hates regimentation, really really hates flying, really really really hates being told what to do, really really really really hates getting up at 6:00am or whatever.</p>
<p>Plus the first time she popped off about Bush or feminism would have gotten her on the wrong side of everything for four years.</p>
<p>Anxiousmom, how does your child get to school if he can't get out of bed before noon? Just curious because my kids have a LOT of trouble rising too.</p>