@MomCares - I believe that you are correct about CMU relaxing their typical admissions profile for acting and MT students. However, I am not completely sure of your point. “Strong Academics” to me refers to the overall situation at the campus and CMU certainly has an academically well-qualified student body. I am pretty sure that theatre classes at CMU are of a high academic caliber, despite the possibility that some theatre students may have a lower academic admissions profile than typical CMU classmates. It could be the case, however, that, on average, CMU theatre students have a higher academic profile, than say, theatre students at Northwestern (smile), despite the fact that, on occasion, they accept students who do not fit their typical admissions profile. Who knows?
Also, the question gets begged (assuming an overly-simplistic model of “smart” vs. “talented” students): “Are theatre performance courses of a more demanding nature with more intelligent or more talented students?”
Another question comes to mind, “Are outstanding theatre students with somewhat lower high school academic profiles any less academically able, especially in theatre courses, than students with higher overall high school academic profiles?”
D has a best friend who will be attending CMU next year in theatre, and she has a very high academic profile.
Oooh. I KNOW I am getting into trouble on this one: Just because a student can “achieve” a high GPA and/or test scores, does not necessarily make them “smarter” than a student who does not achieve in those aspects of school. There are MANY brilliant, highly creative, hard working, successful people who have dyslexia and other learning issues - in a “school” environment. Put them on a stage or in a studio; give them a paintbrush or a “real” problem to solve; ask them to write a comedy sketch or an entire script or choreograph a story; dream up a scientific hypothesis or invent a cure that no one else has thought of and you will find an amazing group of people throughout “literate” history who did not do “well” in school. Many hugely talented, “alternatively-gifted”, creative, smart people - who may have been class clowns or “screw-ups” - choose to go to schools that are not “strong in academics” (or no school at all). One might argue that by going to a school popularly considered to be highly competitive academically, a student may be choosing to surround him/herself with other people who know how to follow the correct steps leading to an “A”, who then go on make post-graduation decisions that keep them constantly striving for someone else’s idea of an “A”. What’s that saying about “A” students working for “B” students at companies owned by “C” (“Ds” anyone?) students?
I know I’m going to regret that glass of wine I had with my Mother’s Day dinner. . .
@EmsDad - Thanks for your lists over the years, btw! As a fellow (?) engineer I always enjoy and appreciate them!!
As I’ve said many times on cc, we also know academically-brilliant kids who chose Conservatories, as well as crazy-talented kids who chose not to study MT in college at all, so my post wasn’t meant to address that at all… sorry that was unclear.
My memory (foggy since it was 4 years ago) was that a student’s academic stats played very little role, if any, in CMU MT admissions and that more importantly (for the OP) MT students have almost no exposure to CMU’s academic courses. Since I thought the OP was seeking both strong MT training and rigorous academics I felt drawing attention to that difference from other schools on the list might be helpful.
At last year’s auditions we were told that CMU students only take one “regular” course a semester, the student giving us a tour said his was yoga- another was taking a painting course for non art majors. They did not strike me as “rigorous” academic requirements- certainly not what a CMU engineering major would be taking. Again, the student giving the tour (who happens to be from our hometown and a family friend) said he had not written an academic paper since he arrived.
@mom4bwayboy - I absolutely agree with every word you wrote, and hope nothing I’ve ever posted implies otherwise!
In my mind, the discussions on cc have never been about which type of college is “best” for every kid but rather about finding schools that offer the college experience a specific individual wants/needs, and some kids really want to continue with challenging academics.
I get that, too @MomCares - and no offense given or taken. I think most of us in this particular forum - and other Arts-related forums - get that. But the world at large sends such different message to our kids for all of their schooling lives. If you’re an All Star student who chooses to “dumb down” for college - you’re making a stupid choice that will limit all future options. And if you’re a less-than-All-Star student - regardless of other skills - you’re just lazy, or stupid, or both. And, God forbid, “state” schools are filled with “those” kinds of students. But yeah, I get it. Do I wish one of my NM kids had applied to an “Ivy”? Sure. But I’m glad neither gave into the pressure to do something that held no feelings of anticipation and pleasure for THEM.
I just hope that when an Arts kid is saying they want rigorous academic challenge as well as a BFA (or similar) that they REALLY know what they’re asking for - and understand that EVERYTHING does not have to be accomplished in the four years immediately after HS. There is time. Things can happen sequentially. And choosing one option does not negate all others forever. You can change your mind, and your direction. Obviously there are many students on this forum who have thrived - and will thrive - in a BFA type program/double major housed in a rigorous academic environment. Hopefully they are doing it because they love all of it and can’t imagine doing it any other way. Not because a family member, a neighbor or influential school advisors/teachers/coaches have told them they “should” - or they’ll come to regret it.
I hear you, but oddly I think our D almost felt the opposite pressure. Everyone (parents, councelors, siblings, coaches, teachers, etc.) had always assumed she’d want a BFA or Conservatory and we were all surprised when in ED season she completely reprioritized her list to favor strong academics. Four years later, though, I can say with certainty that she followed her heart, has loved every step of the way and that her path is so far leading where she wants to be.
Just as there are kids pressured towards unwanted college academics there are also kids who are urged toward a laser-focus on their craft in college, yet as you say they’ll have the rest of their lives to continue studying voice, dance and acting. There are many paths, all equally valid, and I agree that it’s best if we can let the travellers chose them.
For those with current info, do academic stats influence addmisions to either CMU MT or the USC BFA?
Academic stats play little into admission for Carnegie Melon’sarts related programs that require an audition or portfolio. Husband attended Carnegie Melon many years ago as a MT major, but transferred into a double major in economics and public policy. He had the grades to make it academically in Carnegie Melon, which was good considering his change in direction. D’s friend is an art major there currently and only had mediocre grades but a strong portfolio. Hasn’t needed to take that many academic classes, so it hasn’t been an issue.
@MomCares I was surprised when my D’s guidance counselor was advising her to do a BFA and she/we are looking for BA with strong academics. She wants to be able to take courses outside of MT and possibly double major or minor, every school the counselor would suggest,I would say, that ones a BFA, that ones mediocre academics…etc…it was frustrating and I was glad we have done our own homework!
Yes, @joyfulmama, from what I’ve seen when it comes to Arts kids many well-meaning adults will automatically urge them toward conservatory-style programs without consideration of what else they might want from their college years. In fact exactly that happened to me as a high school student.
Of course I also understand that there are folks who think every smart kid should want to go to Harvard, and I certainly don’t subscribe to that philosophy either, nor do I think that many kids will suceed in getting a second major to placate their parents.
I applaud those who do their own research and build school lists according to the attributes that fit their specific desires and needs. The college years race past, so it’s great to make them count in whatever ways an individual values.
@MomCares yes, my oldest D chose a conservatory for her college career (she wound up not going bc she booked a tour) but that style of schooling was perfect for her & we supported that choice. This D feels she wants more choices in her curriculum so we support that. And of course that choice may change which would be fine too. But right now our focus is mainly BA’s…Btw hoping to visit Northwestern this summer!
Again, it depends on the school and what the BFA requirements are. Some schools absolutely allow for a minor with a BFA and have a decent number of academic classes as requirements towards their BFA to begin with. Their classes may also require more writing/ reading/ research/discussion even though they are in theater/ acting/ voice/ dance etc.
Often the academic bar of a school will permeate the classes regardless of the subject. In any case, I’d advise coming into a school with as many AP or college level classes under your belt, so that requirements can be exempted, leaving more room for other classes leading to a minor (or two) or a second major.
@uskoolfish - I strongly agree with advice on APs. My kid just finished her 1st year- and will be (academically) ranked as a junior next year. One of the things she wants to figure out this summer is whether she would prefer graduating a year early, or picking up a double major/minor. Either choice has pro/cons - but the AP credits give her more options, which means all that time spent on HW in HS (after rehearsal for 2 shows - she often didn’t get to start until 10:00) was “worth it”.
D couldn’t graduate early because of the sequential classes she needed to take–plus senior recital and showcase–but she was able to take two minors. She did one in English literature and a second in the Business of entertainment, media and technology. I felt that it was a benefit to take to have a “talent-based” major (and scholarship), combined with an academic and business minor. Kind of trying to cover all bases
I know this is off-point a bit but it has come up a few times on these threads (and twice in a week in my kitchen!). I keep hearing and reading about kids pushing to graduate early. For many (most?) BFA-MT programs, it is not an option but for some it seems to be. Money aside (the tuition savings), I’ve said to the kids at my house - if my 50 year-old self could advise my college/grad school self I would say this: slow down and ENJOY this time. You have your whole life to be a working adult and only a short time to enjoy the experiences of college. If you rush through it, your 50-year old self could have regrets :-).
Thank you @artskid, I had a sad moment over the weekend realizing that my S was halfway through college…which I recall as the most fun part of my life (not the happiest maybe, but the most entertaining) even now.
For us- it’s about the next step. My D is LOVING every moment of her college experience- but also thinking about her future. She is considering a MFA- and finishing her undergrad a year early could give her a jump there. She is acting, not MT- (idk if there are MFA programs for MT)- but I spend time on this forum b/c there is more chatter If I am correct - at NYU you must have 3 years of studio to graduate (though primary opportunities for showcase /industry contacts come in 4th year) which is nice, and more unusual than not in the BFA world. It’s one of the things I like about NYU- the options. IDK which direction she will take - and there are merits to all the paths open. It’s a pleasant problem to have- having choices is good.
I think most of us in this particular forum - and other Arts-related forums - get that. But the world at large sends such different message to our kids for all of their schooling lives. If you’re an All Star student who chooses to “dumb down” for college - you’re making a stupid choice that will limit all future options. And if you’re a less-than-All-Star student - regardless of other skills - you’re just lazy, or stupid, or both. And, God forbid, “state” schools are filled with “those” kinds of students. But yeah, I get it. Do I wish one of my NM kids had applied to an “Ivy”? Sure. But I’m glad neither gave into the pressure to do something that held no feelings of anticipation and pleasure for THEM.