Yes, Lawrence really surprised us. It went from not being on our list at all to being near the top. That was actually my impetus for posting this thread. I was bummed I hadn’t really paid much attention to it before, so I wanted to make sure we weren’t missing any other hidden gems.
I’m sure it’s a fine school but with a 72% admission and #75 rank amongst LACs, will it meet your daughter’s selectivity and pedigree needs?
Has anyone mentioned VCU? It’s VCU Arts program is very well known and is urban.
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I’m confused. Lawrence’s acceptance rate is a problem, and VCU’s even-higher acceptance rate is not?
OP has stated that physics reputation is their post important criterion. Lawrence cracks the top 10 in some lists of PhD feeder schools in physics. ( The Colleges Where PhD's Get Their Start )
VCU is a BFA school for musical theater, which is not what the OP wants; although they do have a musical theater minor which is available university-wide… but one would still be competing with BFA students for performance opportunities. VCU is decent for STEM generally so probably okay for physics; they’d have to investigate whether the opportunities for a(n) MT minor would be worth being drawn there for. I tend to suspect that scoring an arts scholarship at URichmond would put her in a more interdisciplinary-friendly situation, but the theater major doesn’t look very MT oriented and again, I’m sure the physics major is fine but the school isn’t particularly known for that either.
College of Wooster came to mind for strong STEM, good performing arts, and generous merit, but urban it is not.
I doubt any checks-every-box unicorn schools have been missed here! Everything more “elite” that I can think of would be full pay. FWIW, I was favorably impressed when I visited Lawrence with my older daughter, although that was more than a decade ago now.
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Yes I knew about VCU’s admit rate but they want urban and they have a BA in music. Also while I read on here about Lawrence and physics, I cannot find any info that shows it as well thought of. I’ve found a #7 in Wisc and 395 in US, #107 in US for physics and others not listed.
It’s just another suggestion, one with urban tones as OP was most excited when NYC schools were mentioned. Lawrence is also tiny whereas most other OP is naming are mid or large.
That would be a concern with Appleton once they see it if they want uber urban. They have UMN already abd DePaul. VCU is just yet another and with merit.
Just another idea. Nothing else.
I am beginning to get a little confused. Is it possible to get a list of “must haves?” For example if cost and urban location are on the list as non-negotiable, you can begin to remove some schools. U Conn is very rural, etc. Has this student had the opportunity to visit different types of schools? No school will have everything, but if there are 2 things that this student must have, maybe we can eliminate. She’s a junior and might not know- that’s ok.
If cost (under $60,000) is set in stone, I would choose accordingly and keep in mind yearly increases. While every school on the original list might give merit, it doesn’t mean merit is likely at all of these schools. I would make sure to include at least two schools with a high likelihood of merit, affordable cost etc. Once she does that she can apply anywhere, “shoot her shot” as they say. Merit will be more likely at UConn than UNC, so she may be willing to take the rural location etc.
I am under the impression that physics is the major, and Spanish could be a minor. There should be opportunities for theater but it doesn’t have to be a major. Is that correct?
I am also confused as to why Arizona’s 87% acceptance rate is a problem, but a 75% acceptance rate (Lawrence) is not. Physics is a tough major regardless of school. What am I missing?
I realize that your daughter is a junior and these “must haves” could change, she may change her mind, etc.
Thank you!
So I know more about MT than physics and I just looked at the physics list, is CU Boulder a financial and location possibility? They seem to have a highly rated physics program and a very good MT program. Their bfa is actually only 60 credit hours so should allow a double major, it is not as highly competitive as many other MT programs.
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A BA in music is VERY different than musical theater.
All auditioned BFA musical theater programs should be viewed as reaches. The student would be required to audition, and that means all bets are off in terms of how competitive the program is.
In addition, while BFA is only 60 credit hours, that doesn’t include performances which can easily add more than 10 hours of rehearsal time per week. Or more.
I’m not saying this student shouldn’t try to meet all their criteria…I’m saying…I think there needs to be some compromise.
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Yes. My son is in a bfa program. Some are more reachy than others.
Many bfa acting programs are much more than 60 credit hours. Many (including my sons) include performances as classes so they have less classes when they have performances (which are many more than 10 hours a week).
This one is certainly more reasonable than others where it is impossible to take any classes other than those for bfa and university wide requirements.
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I think the student very much also needs to check to see if an auditioned BFA student is allowed to double major. I believe the parent knows this already which is why Lawrence has made the list.
At Oberlin, plan to take five years to do a double in the arts, and physics…because that’s what it often takes. So factor that into your costs.
Oberlin does not have an MT program. They have a BA in acting that is a regular major in the college.
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Sorry- getting confused on the 2nd major - was just trying to come up with urban ideas.
At one point, OP (there’s two similar threads by them) was really pushing on NYC - and I thought - there’s Chicago (Depaul), some Boston area schools, DC, and well Richmond hit my mind. If OP likes cold, which it seems, I suspect UMN will hit the target as they’ve already got on the list. UVM for a smaller city with downtown campus? CWRU gets a lot of love here for multiple majors - likely mentioned earlier.
Just trying to throw out ideas.
Anyway, I earlier suggested going to see local schools until they can get on campuses - and I’m sure like many kids, after visiting a few campuses, ideas will begin to shift - and then they’ll be able to narrow on a certain kind of campus, in a certain area with a certain type vibe - and the “formal search” will then become easier. What often happens is schools high on the list may become - not so high - after visiting - which is a good thing btw - as you start to see - oh, that one is not near too many things to walk to - I don’t love that - and then you start removing schools with not a lot nearby, etc.
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Amongst baccaulaureate-level institutions that produced students who went on to earn a PhD between 2010-2018, this is where Lawrence appeared (source).
Based off that information, I would say that Lawrence’s physics graduates are well-thought of by physics grad programs.
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This was an ETA, but too many saw my previous post before I edited, so am making this a different post.
The Quaker consortium of Swarthmore (49), Haverford (33), and Bryn Mawr (17) total 99 physics doctorates earned between 2010-2018. Those three institutions have about 4,455 undergrads combined. When compared to the greatest number of physics doctorates earned between 2010-2018 at ALL undergraduate institutions, regardless of institution type, it shows they are really punching above their weight.
And yes, that Harvey Mudd with its 922 undergrads also makes the list of overall institutions at 79 doctoral recipients shows that it is a super heavy hitter in this domain. Harvey Mudd doesn’t offer much merit aid, but Scripps, the women’s college in the Claremont Consortium does give about 23% of its students without need merit aid, with an average package size that would just bring it within budget. The Claremont Colleges aren’t IN L.A., but they are in the metro area, so perhaps another possibility to consider for @UTmeritseeker’s D?
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Adding a bit more:
BFA programs are basically off the table. She is aware that is not really possible with a double major (hence my OP stating she wants a school with strong theater options, ideally to include access to theater classes and auditioning for shows, but not BFA).
Urban (ideally NYC, Boston, Philly) is her personal preference, but we are acutely aware that our specific desires will require compromise, so we also haveschools on the list that are not urban but meet other requirements (I promise I know US geography!).
Unfortunately, most NYC and Boston schools that fit our other criteria do not give real merit aid (NYU, BU, NW, BC) or don’t have the programs she wants (Emerson, Pace, etc.). I really would love to find some options there though.
Lawrence ticks a lot of the other boxes so its lower acceptance rate isn’t so much of a problem. (We have stated we aren’t interested in Arizona for other reasons, but specifically in comparison on acceptance rate, etc. Arizona is 87% compared to Lawrence that is around 70% depending on the source, and the average SAT is about 100 pts higher.
I accept that I may be being unfair to Arizona, we just really don’t like the state (and have spent time there so we have our own basis).
This is my updated list for those still interested in this long thread: (removed some for $$ (Rochester) or unavailable majors (e.g. Lehigh), and added others (Whitman, Grinnell, Binghampton, Pitt, Fordham, CU)
Ranked by expected COA:
University of Utah (would likely be lowest cost by a very long way, but she wants out of state)
Lawrence University
San Diego State
SUNY, Stony Brook (NY)
Loyola University Chicago
Clark University (MA)
SUNY, Binghampton University (NY)
University of Minnesota - Twin Cities
Univ of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
University of Pittsburgh
Case Western Reserve (OH)
University of Colorado, Boulder
CalPoly University-San Luis Obispo
Univ of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
University of Wisconsin (Madison)
University of Washington (Seattle)
Whitman College (WA)
Grinnell College (IA)
University of San Diego
Oberlin (OH)
Fordham University (NY)
Macalaster (MN)
Northeastern (MA)
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
Davidson (NC)
(More expensive but leaving on list
- UC Berkeley (we are alumns so we have a soft spot)
Loving all the feedback and help with this list!!! Keep it coming!
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Re: Fordham. I believe the theater major is audition-based.
We have a similar budget (a bit higher, as we are willing to pay up to $65K). We had to drop Fordham due to price. I had made the mistake of
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Using Google and college web site aggregators to gage price. They are usually several years old.
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I failed to account for annual increases. Fordham is $85K, all in, this year, and will likely be higher (by $2-3K) next year. A $20K scholarship won’t bring it into budget for my high school senior’s freshman year in college, let alone her senior year. And if she needed an extra semester to graduate, ouch, scholarship $ would be gone. If you think she might be a NMSF, there are a limited number of half-tuition scholarships, but not every NMSF gets one.
This is really an issue for many of the private schools. At $82K + per year, and increasing, the top merit scholarship may or may not be enough to get down to $60K (especially by senior year!!).
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I’m still wondering how Michigan with a COA of $80,000 will be affordable. Very very competitive and limited merit aid for OOS students.
UNC is nearly $60,000 but getting admitted from OOS is the huge challenge there even for top students.
Davidson is over $76,000 a year and does majority need based aid.
University of Washington is over $64,000 a year.
Actually…you have a lot of expensive colleges on this list…and are hoping for at least $20,000 of merit aid at some of these where the costs to attend are $80,000 or more.
It’s possible…but please be realistic.
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I went back and forth about recommending Scripps. The college itself isn’t known for physics per se, and the major requirements are relatively light (“Course requirements for the physics major are kept relatively modest, allowing students with multiple interests to pursue double and dual majors and minors.”), but the rigor and depth is there for those who want it, with both Mudd and Pomona coursework and faculty available in addition to what Scripps has. I shied away from recommending for a few reasons:
- Very suburban - getting into LA-proper takes longer than, for example, getting into Philly from Bryn Mawr, and while Claremont itself is charming, most of the surrounding Inland Empire area is rather “strip mall sprawl” ish.
- Cost: There is merit available up to half-tuition, but that’s coming off a sticker price that’s one of the highest in the nation (actually named the highest last year by at least one publication) so even the best-case COA with merit is over 52K.
- But most of all, I’m unsure how much musical theater there really is. I followed the calendar of events and performances pretty closely when my daughter was there, and I can’t remember much in the way of musicals. It must exist… but it doesn’t loom very large unless I’m really missing something. Now that I search… there is one “student-run and community-driven” musical theater organization, “Spotlight MT,” which seems to put on one show per semester. They have an Instagram which may be the best place to size up whether the opportunities are adequate. The Pomona Theater Department, which serves the whole consortium, doesn’t seem MT oriented at all.
So, I wanted to plug Scripps but… unsure that it adds up.
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Yes, noted and known. Our $60k as stated previously is a preference, not a hard ceiling, so for those that have a wide range of merit aid offered, we can take our chances and see what they come back with and then make decisions accordingly. Eveerything in that list from Grinnell to the end are above 60K (from $61K to $72K)
I have them all in a spreadsheet with the average merit aid amount granted for non-needs based and the likelihood of receiving that to create a somewhat realistic metric. e.g. if the average merit aid is like Davidson (highest adjusted COA on my list), e.g. grants $35k average non-needs merit award, but is only awarded to 9% of students, it only “counts” as a $3150 discount for my spreadsheet.
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My youngest is a first year theater and politics major at Pomona. The consortium is AMAZING! I cannot say enough wonderful things about the experience they are having. BUT, there is not a MT major. There is a student org, that produces musicals and the theater dept. does one musical every other year. There are many opportunities for music and many opportunities for performance, but if you are seeking specifically MT, it’s there, but not prominent. The students do leave campus and enjoy the area, both the city and the beach, mountains etc. That was important to my kiddo, and we heard from many schools that even though a city was accessible, students mostly stayed on campus. Pomona was an exception, students said that many students do take advantage of the location, and we have found that to be true. If physics is the priority and MT would be a bonus, then I think that Scripps would be worth a visit.
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