If you are first gen, you darn well care about that. Colleges which have the infrastructure and teams in place to support a kid who doesn’t have the social capital that yours does-- MUCH better bet for a First Gen kid than rando college without such supports.
This is a really meaningful metric for kids who don’t have college educated parents.
Adding - I actually ignored US News - it is impossible with its splitting up of “national” and “liberal arts” to make any real comparisons. I was mostly looking at Forbes, WSJ, Niche and taking an average of those general rankings, along with the specific rankings for physics, performing arts (and neurobiology - another interest) with a VERY clear sense that their rankings are all over the map, but some schools do have some kind of consistency.
That’s the point - it’s a proxy but not really made up with these things. There’s a little of them.
Grad school likely matters little where you go but that’s why I showed you the PhD feeder schools - so you can see - who is placing.
I went to a high end private (for the major which was a low end major) - my MBA at a large public was of far more quality, etc. It makes me wonder - how much might be major based - i.e. physics is going to be strong anywhere. Maybe not all great profs - but it’s not going to be a cakewalk but journalism or recreation or marketing will be - relative - no matter where you are.
Just food for thought.
I hope you get out and see some schools - that will also help you focus your list.
You might jones for an LAC and decide its too small or jones for a city and then walk off the GW tour like we did and decide - I want city - but also a campus.
You might love a large school but then some are spread out (UGA) and some are compact (Purdue).
There’s so many nuances of schools - it’s fun to go and watch the kid’s minds change on the spot about what they want.
They’ve heard of all the schools but then real life starts to hit when they see them or imagine how far the walk is to class, where is the food vs. the dorm, etc.
All good stuff.
I think it is a great metric even if you aren’t first generation. I see it as a proxy for student engagement, for schools paying attention to how their students are doing, for consistency of financial aid over four years, and for access to mental health services, etc.
Yes - but is it meaningful to this student?
OP’s kid is like most - assuming a higher ranked kid is more selective.
And my point is that much of what’s in the methodology has nothing to do with what kids from wealthy families likely want. OP has mentioned selectivity / i.e. acceptance rates and they’re not measured.
Most kids from wealthier families - mine included - don’t say - I sure hope they have Pell or First Gen kids on campus.
That’s what I meant by the comment - not that they’re important but they are not important to all.
That’s really what rankings are - a one size fits all even though everyone’s situation is very different.
Actually, my younger daughter did (we are a “wealthy” family). She did not want a heterogeneous school.
I saw Chapman on your original list of schools. Our oldest graduated several years ago, received a half tuition scholarship stacked with a music merit scholarship. Similar high stats kid with a strong EC. (Instrumental music performance)
Chapman has a strong MT and voice program, many students double major. Mine entered as Biochem/Music.
I do not know the strength of the Physics program, however.
Very lovely area in Southern California. As others have mentioned, rents off campus are pretty high as is dining out etc.
Perhaps some kids - but I’m guessing she looked at the school’s diversity metrics - but not the breakdown of diversity into the school’s rank via US News.
Don’t mean to get off on a tangent - I’m just noting that what’s in the ranking is often completely irrelevant to a student.
But students use that rank as a measure of selectivity (which it’s not at all) and prestige, etc.
Thanks
I think we all need to read the subject of this thread again. Strong theater, strong physics, big city, and gives merit aid.
In my opinion, there will need to be some compromises made along the way. I guess the biggest question I have…does this student want to pursue musical theater possibly as a career…or not. If not, and physics is the priority, then they need to start looking at programs with strong physics programs, and the ability for this student to participate in musical theater.
USD is also test blind. My high stats S18 applied when his high SAT (1550+) was still considered. He was offered the highest merit award ($25K/year). His younger brother S23 - equivalent or better stats, plus some really unique, engineering-related ECs, Eagle Scout, etc. - and a 34 ACT single sitting (not considered by USD in this recent admissions cycle) - was offered $0 merit. You can’t count on merit at USD. (As an aside, USD also eliminated EA, so admissions decisions didn’t come out until early March.)
ETA - We’re not low income and S23 is not an athlete, so this tracks your statement about how USD might be targeting its merit dollars.
I would not recommend most Canadian schools for your student. There are only a handful (less than 10) musical theatre programs in the country, most of which are conservatory-style and highly vocational.
McGill is not known for theatre (even student theatre) and its department of music does not have room for vocalists who are not classical vocalists, and outside of McGill, the economics of Canadian theatre are such that there are very few musicals produced every year. Montreal is not the city you want to be in if you want to stay involved with musical theatre even as a hobby.
The only Canadian school I can think of that might be worth a look is Bishop’s University, which is in Sherbrooke, QC. It is part of the Maple League (known for its strength in undergraduate education) and has a major in Physics and students from any major can pursue a concentration in MT. It would not fit your big city requirement, but if you’re considering Lawrence (I went to college in small town WI…Sherbrooke will feel similar to Appleton in size) I don’t think it’s dissimilar.
Another thing you may wish to consider (and which may result in changes to your list) is the difficulty getting admitted to the physics major.
For instance, at University of Washington (and many UC schools), physics is a capacity-constrained major. Students must complete prerequisite courses, some of them notorious “weed-out” courses, get the necessary GPA, and submit an application with essay, etc., that ticks off all the boxes. Depending on the school and the major, it may be that only a minority of applicants are admitted each year. And this is from among the students who already managed to be admitted to a selective school.
Your child may not be intimidated by that prospect at all, in which case, fine. But knowing she wants to double major, which is already a challenge in terms of getting into the right classes at the right times, she may not want to bother with additional barriers and obstacles.
My daughter received acceptances to some of the schools on your list, including UC schools with Regents scholarships (neither of which exceeded $7,500/year). Ultimately, she decided that for HER desired programs, it wasn’t worth paying the relatively high cost combined in some cases with the difficulty of entry to her desired major. She chose instead to attend a less-selective school in the Honors College.
It isn’t the path for everyone and works better for some career goals better than others and some personalities better than others. But I mention it because my child was also very high achieving in high school and I think she (and peers) assumed she would go to a top-50 ranked school because that is “what smart kids do.”
In the end, she didn’t like a lot of what came with the top 50 schools on her list and didn’t really figure that out until after acceptances were in. Had we focused on it earlier (like you, OP), we may have removed some of those schools from her list and looked harder at more less-selective options.
It has worked out well for my daughter to go the less-selective route. She continues to excel academically and is able to dedicate many hours to extracurricular and social activities. She has received two great internship offers with international companies, a great on-campus job that pays more than $2/hr over minimum wage in a high-minimum-wage area, and she just was offered another position that she didn’t even apply for today. I will note, however, that she does not have aspirations to work on Wall Street or in DC or to take other paths that might justify a different approach. It’s definitely not a one-size-fits-all analysis.
But just some food for thought. You might want to consider what application process and competition for majors, clubs, etc. happens AFTER admission, too.
For 2023-24, SDSU quotes non-resident COA @$47K for on-campus living, and $44K for off-campus living. These costs include a line item for food/housing. Even as rents (and tuition) are going up, COA is still under OP’s budget.
SDSU has several Physics major options. They have an MT major as well as a Theater minor. Auditions are usually open to all.
One downside for OP is that SDSU requires non-local students to live on campus for the first 2 years.
This could apply to some schools, but not the more selective ones, and not any that my kids applied to.
For the ones they applied to and the examples we know in real life, true merit money is offered when the student (based on the application/stats/LOR) is someone the college highly desires to have on campus and is trying to get them to pick that school over other options. These colleges know how they compete in head-to -heads and how to try to get the “top” kids in their applicant pool. One of mine got tons of non-need based merit at Fordham and she showed tons of interest(covid so it was virtual interest). She did not get the maximum non-need package from them, so they must have wanted others a little bit more. Our other kid got a very rare full COA signature scholarship to Wake Forest that definitely had zero ties to her interest because she loved Wake and toured, & emailed with the rep, all before applying.
If schools use merit as a tool for the less interested kids, I have not seen it among the ones my kids and their peers applied to.
The biggest hurdle for you as a merit-seeker is the more highly selective the college, the exponentially harder and rarer large merit scholarships are, and the more difficult the competition is.
Lawrence is a terrific school. I know 3 grads–one is a very successful lawyer in NYC, one is a geology professor, and one is the smartest doctor I know. Keep reminding your daughter that the Midwest LACs punch far above their weight. If Lawrence were magically transported to the NE, everybody would be fighting to get in.
Some schools that you may want to consider include:
Bryn Mawr: This women’s college produces significant numbers of women who’ve gone on to earn their PhD in physics and it’s part of a consortium with Haverford and Swarthmore so it can also take advantage of their strong physics departments as well. Unlike the other two, though, about half of students receive a merit aid package large enough to bring the school within budget. It’s just outside of Philadelphia, easily accessible via public transportation.
U. of Puget Sound (WA): This Tacoma school also puts out a lot of students that go on to earn their PhD in physics. Extremely likely to fall within budget after merit aid.
Macalester (MN): This Minneapolis school also produces a good chunk of students who go on to earn a PhD in physics, is very well-reputed, and its average merit aid package is large enough to get this school within budget. ETA: Accidentally missed that this one’s already on your list!
Occidental (CA): This Los Angeles school doesn’t produce quite as many physics doctorates as the schools listed above, but it still produces a decent number and the theater opportunities in southern California could be very enticing as well. Offers merit aid, but your D would need an above-average-sized package to bring this within budget.
Trinity (TX): This San Antonio school also produces a respectable number of physics PhDs and is seeking to improve its profile nationally with some generous merit aid. Likely to make budget.
Xavier (OH): This Cincinnati school also produces a decent number of physics PhDs while also offering a non-audition BA in Musical Theater. Extremely likely to make budget.
When I read this (and you aren’t the only one who feels that way), I always ask:
There are going to be theater kids who weren’t top of their class, no matter where they go, so if your daughter doesn’t want to be around kids with lower GPAs, she shouldn’t major in theater. My daughter was one. She didn’t have top grades in hs because she really didn’t do well in math or science. She was great in English, history, writing, theater. Her sister was great in STEM, but had to work like crazy in the liberal arts (and had no interest in them in college, and didn’t contribute to class discussions for the required classes), and I can tell you you’d rather have the first in any liberal arts discussion class, even though her GPA wasn’t 4.0 (darn those math classes).
A classmate of my D went to UCF and was cast in many plays and musicals as a freshman. Because it is such a huge school, they have several theater productions going on at the same time. She had something like 4 majors at UCF (not sure if Physics was one) and really enjoyed her time there.
This is a great list. Thank you!!
UW is no longer a part of WUE, unfortunately. https://www.wiche.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/WUE-onesheet-082023.pdf
Lawrence (which I know is on your list already) seems like it might hit this sweet spot. It is particularly known for physics, and it has tons of talent in the music conservatory, but it doesn’t have a top-tier musical theater program, so a talented BA theater double-major would be on an equal footing with the conservatory kids in terms of getting MT roles. Of course, Appleton is hardly NYC… but it’s a city at least, with a rich cultural life for its size. Lots of music double-majors, so spanning academics and performing arts is very normal. I’d expect her to get at least a “flagship-match” level of merit.