DD 17 has a schedule conflict for her senior year. She was planning to take AP Physics C E&M, but it is only offered one period and her AP Bio and Veterinary Intern/Mentor periods lock her schedule in so there is no way to shift around to fit it in. Both AP Bio and the Intern/Mentor are more important to her than Physics, and with her heading toward a Bio/Chem Eng. undergrad with sights set on vet school, I concur with that assessment. Now comes the question of what should she take instead? Her current course list is:
AP Calc BC
AP Bio
English 12 Hon (already took AP, no point in doing the 2nd AP since most schools only accept one)
Lab assistant
Intern/Mentor (2 credits)
She’s concerned about the “rigor” of her senior schedule, so wants to find an AP to fill the spot. I personally don’t think she has anything to worry about in that arena; she has a 4.0 UW GPA, has taken 5 AP classes so far, and isn’t shooting for any Ivy’s – her most selective schools will be Bucknell and Lehigh. That said, if she is heading into an engineering curriculum, it would be good for her to be exposed to the rest of physics not covered by the mechanics AP class before she gets there; so even taking Physics 2 AP would be helpful in that regard, I would think. Beyond that, my take is that she just find a class she’ll enjoy (forget about the AP status) and call it done … if she really wants an AP, then maybe AP Psych or AP Environmental Science.
But looking ahead, if the Physics 2 AP doesn’t work either, is it important enough for her to be exposed to physics material before she gets there in an engineering curriculum to warrant taking it at the CC the summer after she graduates? At that point the credit would just transfer, and she wouldn’t have to take it at whatever school she ends up attending. That approach might be helpful in the long run anyway because physics can act as a “weeder” class in large engineering schools, so she might have a better shot at getting a really good grade (critical for vet school apps) at CC… AP test score for this year is TBD … she felt like she did okay, though. So maybe that’s the route she should take regardless (e.g., forget trying to fit physics in this year; just plan to take 2nd semester physics over the summer at the CC).
So, I know there are a lot of opinions out there ;-). Let’s hear them.
Regarding AP English, some colleges accept one of the two scores for greater credit than the other.
AP physics 1/2 will not be accepted for subject credit or placement for engineering majors. AP physics C may or may not be, depending on the college (and E&M is less likely than mechanics). Physics for engineering majors in college does expect a prerequisite of calculus and high school physics.
I would look into the requirements at the schools where she is planning to apply and where she is most likely to want to go. Personally, I would not advise a student to take the course at a community college over the summer unless they are transferring it within the same university system.
@ucbalumnus - I understand Physics 2 would not be accepted for subject credit for engineering majors. But in terms of just having been exposed to the material (E&M, thermodynamics, optics, etc.) in HS, it would be useful, correct? In your opinion would it be better for her to take AP Physics C E&M vs. AP Biology? Would it be out of line for her to email the schools she is considering and ask them?
You can look at the AP credit charts for each of the colleges in question to see which AP scores count for subject credit. Do not be surprised if little or no subject credit for the AP sciences is given for engineering majors. Even when subject credit is given, if the student will need to take more advanced courses that require those courses that can be skipped as prerequisites, it would be a good idea for the student to try the college’s old final exams for those courses to verify her knowledge to the college’s expectations.
AP physics 2 may be of some help in initial exposure and overview of the material for later physics courses in college.
Probably AP Bio. Since lots of students change their majors, focusing on the area of interest may help her with the process of deciding if this is really for her or not.
Has she taken Physics I or Physics C Mechanics? If so she probably doesn’t need more Physics particularly if she isn’t planing on an Engineering major. I assume she already has all the Social Studies/History? And some foreign language. What about AP Psychology if your school offers it. Or AP Stats. Looks like a rigorous schedule already. So another option would be to just look for something in the schedule that would be fun for her but still counts as a academic class, such as art, film, creative writing, music.
Does she have units in social science / history and level 4 in a foreign language?
Colleges such as Bucknell and Lehigh may frown on a senior year that is all-stem except for one English class.
She’s already taken AP Physics C Mechanics. She’s taken through Spanish IV Hon; next step would be Spanish V AP, which is an option, but doesn’t really do anything for her at most schools in terms of fulfilling any requirements if she does well on the test. So if she’s going to do an AP class, I would think Psych, Stats, or Env. Science would be better. She’s taken 2 years of Art, 3 years of Social Studies. Her overall transcript is STEM heavy given her interests, but is more well rounded than some, and not just focused on maxing out the AP’s (e.g., she only needed one year of art and took 2; she took anatomy and physiology even though it is an unweighted class because she’s interested in it; she’s doing a veterinary internship with a research writing and presentation component, so it is not strictly STEM). I was shocked to hear her talking about classmates who has purposefully avoided taking PE/Health until their senior year to maximize their GPA through their junior year, since it is an unweighted class. And some of her friends took 6 AP classes last year just because they wanted to maximize their GPA. We advised her to take the AP’s where her interests were, and back off where they weren’t to strike a balance – so she took AP Chem, English, Calc, and Physics, but backed off on World History to Honors. It worked out well for her – she was busy but not overwhelmed between classes and doing varsity athletics all year round; still had time for social life and just chilling some, and I think she’ll be fine wrt college admissions. There is part of her that is annoyed because she knows her class rank will “suffer” compared to her classmates that played those games with their schedules, but big picture, she’s happy with how HS has gone and is not looking forward to it being over yet.
Depending on interest, taking AP Physics online is an option. AP Spanish could also be a good option, even if it doesn’t help get extra credits. For me, it was the first class where I had to write academic essays in a Spanish class, which was a good experience I think.
I think you are aware that the physics required for vet school is going to be different than the physics required for Chemical Engineering. As a Bio major or pre Vet student she would mostly likely get by with AP Physics 1 and 2 which are Algebra based. Physics C M&E is Calculus based. D13 is a Chem E and got a 5 on both sections of the AP Physics C exam and it made her life much easier by not having to take that year of Physics (she is attending Purdue), she has averaged about 14 academic hours (she also played in the orchestra and that counted as 2 hours for a total of 16) vs. 16-18 that many students have had to take.
That said her goal is a bit different from your child’s. She wants to be an engineer so while GPA is still important it probably doesn’t carry the same weight as it would for someone trying to be accepted into a Vet school. I think in your D’s circumstance I might suggest she not worry about Physics in HS and wait until she decides which direction she wants to go. If it’s bio or even another major with a pre Vet emphasis she may choose to take the less math intensive Physics in college just because she can. It sounds like she has a good math backround but Engineering Physics can be a challenging set of courses.
Thanks @lvvcsf – yes, AP Physics C is overkill for what Vet school will require. But if she wants to do undergrad Bio/Chem Eng. as she is currently saying, then she’ll have to take calc-based physics … and like you said, if she’s able to place out of it via AP credit, it does make the engineering curriculum easier (and yes, the Vet school will accept AP credit for their biology and physics requirements – we’ve already checked that). I hadn’t thought of the online option for AP physics mentioned above, but with both DH and I being engineers, that’s actually a viable option if she’s up for the commitment to self-study (e.g., we can help her with concepts as necessary). She has a great relationship with her physics teacher, so I’m quite sure he’d sign out a textbook to her for self-study if she asked him (not that we don’t have our own 30-year old textbooks floating around…). Hmmm… I’m wondering if the school would allow her a free period (vs. actually signing up for a class to fill her empty slot) … can’t hurt to ask, I suppose. It’s not like she needs the credits to graduate – the only class that fulfills a graduation requirement is English, and she’s already well over the # credits required for graduation.
Completing a higher level of Spanish in high school could lead to higher placement in Spanish in college. At colleges with foreign language graduation requirements, this could mean fulfilling such requirements in fewer courses.
For a student with a strong math background, wouldn’t a physics course that is unafraid to use some math be more understandable than one where the instructors hand-wave around the math?
To speak to the curricular point: It would be highly desirable to have some exposure to E&M before enrolling in a university physics course in E&M. It will make a lot of difference in understanding the course concepts. A student who is majoring in Chemical Engineering, even if pre-vet, will almost certainly need the calculus-based E&M course.
Depending on what was covered in the high-school chemistry course, it would also be desirable for the student to have some exposure to E&M before taking freshman chemistry, if the student is going to do that.
If the student is not going to take freshman chemistry (due to AP credit), then thermodynamics is also an issue. Freshman chem usually includes “baby thermo.”
Here are my specific recommendations, that don’t require enrolling in anything, to cover the physics background that is needed:
Buy the PSSC physics high-school text book. Over one of the summers ahead of taking physics in college, help your daughter go through and really understand the chapters on electricity and magnetism. There are not too many, and you will be able to help her with it. (This would not apply to parents in general.)
If your daughter is going to take freshman chem in college, then nothing else is needed.
If your daughter has AP credit in chemistry, and is not going to take freshman chem, then it depends on whether her class covered thermo at the AP level (most do), and whether she feels confident about the thermo material. If so, then nothing else is needed.
If your daughter has AP credit in chemistry, and is not going to take freshman chem, but does not feel comfortable with thermo, then it would also be advisable to go through the thermo chapter or chapters in a college freshman chemistry text, ahead of taking chemical engineering thermo. Another option to cover introductory thermo (one I might recommend) is the text Engines, Energy, and Entropy: A Thermodynamics Primer, by John Fenn.
Optics can almost always be learned “on the fly.” I don’t think prior exposure is needed. (By this, I mean optics for chemical engineering/pre-vet. It might be different for a student intending to major in physics.)
One more recommendation, for courses in college: Your daughter should complete multi-variable calculus, including vector calculus, before taking a calculus-based physics course in college. This is true even if the college lists these courses as co-requisites, or even says that the vector calculus can be postponed until after E&M.
It is possible to complete calculus-based E&M without having vector calculus in the math department first. But it is quite hard, and the time requirements to do that well will interfere with all of the other courses that are being taken at the same time.
But wouldn’t it be less satisfying for a student who knows calculus to take a physics course where the instructor avoids calculus even when using calculus would simplify the explanation of the concept?
Wouldn’t this be for the physics course that covers E&M? The introductory calculus-based physics course that covers mechanics typically does not use multivariable calculus.
Oh, right, ucbalumnus–that is really what I meant to recommend. It should be fine to take vector calculus at the same time as mechanics. There are a few exceptions where it might be nice to see vector calculus ahead of mechanics, in terms of the connection of the force to the negative of the gradient of the potential, and the definition of conservative systems, but those shouldn’t pose any stumbling blocks. So it’s not necessary.