<p>Some kids, particularly many boys, seem to do less well in high school than their SAT’s would indicate they are capable of. That is not uncommon as many kids are just late bloomers or are not into the competition or busywork of high school. One of my kids could have done much better in high school than he did (to the frustration of parents and teachers) but has excelled in college in engineering. The OP may very well do better in college if he finds a good fit and applies himself.</p>
<p>Cobrat- once again, there is little basis for your statements. There are plenty of low(er) SAT students who do very well in college. You really can’t draw these conclusions so broadly.</p>
<p>The gap between the rather ordinary GPA and the very high SATs can be a flag for weak executive function skills.</p>
<p>I don’t question what Cobrat’s saying about how it sometimes works. But I’ve also seen the opposite, coming out of a hard HS. There are some bright kids who do fine when you sit them down in front of a multiple-choice test for a few hours. But when there is weak executive function, it affects them more on something like a term paper. They have to break that task into chunks, spread the chunks out over a calendar, keep interrupting the work to work on other things as the weeks go by, research, write, and pull it all together into a good, timely product – the result can be much lower than the SATs. I have personally seen kids like this do poorly in college.</p>
<p>There probably isn’t much difference between the weighted and unweighted gpa here, as the OP said that there has been very little weighted coursework. It’s mostly been the normal classes.</p>
<p>The OP’s question is "where can you go with a 3.3 and 2200? Literally about 1500 colleges in the USA – most of which the OP sounds like she wouldn’t want. So geography, finances, and career goals would all have to be considered in pulling together a reasonable list of colleges. But for a really good outcome in college, the OP mother and son need to get to the bottom of why there’s such a discrepancy between the grades and the SATs. There are tendencies that produced this gpa. Those tendencies could affect the young man in college unless he understands them, and has a plan for how to control or compensate for them – whether it’s distraction, needing a certain kind of teacher, time management, whatever. I realize that grades went up in 11th grade, and it’s too soon to tell for 12th. Maybe the kid just decided to start working, and that’s that. But it would be surprising if it were really that simple.</p>
<p>The OP’s concern about distractions at Rutgers are noteworthy. There are distractions at all schools. I wasted more time gabbing and lingering over a third cup of tea after dinner in the dining hall. No parent would begrudge you a cup of tea; it isn’t “girls gone wild”. But it was a way of procrastinating and doing less than my best in my courses, nevertheless. Perhaps the real question is whether the student is ready to live away from home while still doing his best in school. Not everybody is automatically ready when they graduate from HS. There’s no shame in it, as far as I’m concerned. The goal is to be realistic enough to get a good individual outcome.</p>
<p>fieldsports, For my younger kid, it really WAS that simple. He just decided to start working when it really starts to count-in college. Had nothing to do with weak executive function skills. He did fine in high school when he was interested in something-AP Physics-no problem. All state in sport-great. Homework-not so much.</p>
<p>That’s really good! Having watched that unfold as a parent, do you have any thoughts about what can be said or done (if there is anything) to help somebody flip that switch sooner than later? Did you know in your heart that it would happen?</p>
<p>I’ll give you my problem…</p>
<p>I already knew someone would hire me because there were more openings than available grads. That made me not as focused and aggressive. In engineering, the 3.99 GPA, top-school grad is only going to make no more than $5,000-$10,000 more than the C+ engineering student from the mid-tier school. On top of that, once your foot is “in the door”, everyone in engineering is like the playoffs in pro sports…everyone is 0-0. Folks can “job hop” and make up any initially differences in pay.</p>
<p>I went to grad school AFTER I had 8 years experience and that basically made grad school easier. It’s not that hard to get an ‘A’ in a course and you already have experience in the area. You just have to “tune your mind” to allow the textbook and professor have the right answers KNOWING that you know the REAL answers of what goes on in the industry.</p>
<p>So there are so many factors why someone can do better in undergrad than high-school and/or better in grad school than undergrad.</p>
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<p>Perhaps there is regional variation in this type of thing. Here in California, UC has found that high school GPA is a better predictor of college GPA than SAT-R scores.</p>
<p>They also found that SAT-S scores are better predictors than SAT-R scores and that SAT-R scores added close to no predictive value if high school GPA and SAT-S scores were used.</p>
<p>[CSHE</a> - Validity Of High-School Grades In Predicting Student Success Beyond The Freshman Year: High-School Record vs. Standardized Tests as Indicators of Four-Year College Outcomes](<a href=“Publications | Center for Studies in Higher Education”>Publications | Center for Studies in Higher Education)</p>
<p>But, oddly, they dropped requiring SAT-S scores.</p>
<p>[CSHE</a> - Not So Fast! A Second Opinion on a University of California Proposal to Endorse the New SAT](<a href=“Publications | Center for Studies in Higher Education”>Publications | Center for Studies in Higher Education)</p>
<p>There is also a paper on the history of standardized testing for college admissions:</p>
<p>[CSHE</a> - Reflections on a Century of College Admissions Tests](<a href=“Publications | Center for Studies in Higher Education”>Publications | Center for Studies in Higher Education)</p>
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<p>I’ve seen classmates with HS GPAs as low as 2.0, but with high SATs (1300+/1600 pre-1995 scale) and other accomplishments excel to graduation at top 50 or sometimes after transferring, even top 20 schools. Much of it was a mix of the heavy quantity/rigor of the academic workload combined with youthful rebelliousness…especially among us boys. </p>
<p>Incidentally, one younger HS classmate is on the spectrum and had HS GPA in the 2.0 range. However, he ended up transferring and graduating from NYU CAS with a full scholarship/high honors sometime in the mid-'00s and has been an attorney in a NYC boutique firm for several years.</p>
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<p>True, if you’re discussing any college. I was mainly referring to those attending Top 50 colleges/universities. </p>
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<p>This is precisely what I’ve observed among HS and college classmates…and the observations HS classmates/colleague of their undergrad classmates concurs with mine and the above. </p>
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<p>The HS I attended didn’t just give out multiple choice exams. They also had us routinely write 5-15 page research papers and as an extra touch…required us to submit a 20 page senior English thesis in order to graduate. I actually found the grading expectations for such papers to be more severe in HS than at my Top 30 LAC.</p>
<p>While there’s no doubt many with weak executive function issues could be admitted, it’s very unlikely they’d have lasted the first 2 years…much less go on till graduation considering the heavy workload, sink or swim no handholding atmosphere, and cutthroat competitive environment. </p>
<p>Once their weak executive function issues start showing up in the form of poor exam grades/no turned in homework, I can easily see the teachers and admins strongly “counsel” them to transfer back to their zoned high school or the parents unilaterally pulling them out due to the bad grades(1.0 range) and stress. </p>
<p>I actually knew a few college classmates with this very issue and even helped them out of a few jams. </p>
<p>However, if their parents had asked me whether it’s a good idea to have them consider my HS or the other NYC Specialized High schools back when they were 8th graders, I’d strongly urge them to reconsider.</p>
<p>fieldsports, I think it really just needs to unfold in its own time . I nagged him, teachers nagged him-it did no good. His older brother was a top student and athlete -I don’t think that helped in having alot to live up to. I admit I was worried as this was going on in high school. In my heart, I was just hoping he would find a way to be happy and productive.In college, so far, so good.</p>
<p>That the friends are applying to “Top 20” institutions is meaningless. Come April 1, it is entirely possible that not one of them will have been admitted to a single “Top 20”. Even if some are so fortunate, come May 1, it is entirely possible that they will all be heading off to Rutgers (or even the local community college) because of affordability.</p>
<p>Academic fit is important, but financial fit is critical. No mention has been made about affordability for the student that the OP wrote about. That issue should be settled before the family gets too excited about any category of institution.</p>
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<p>But didn’t you go to an elite (public magnet) high school, not a one whose course rigor and grading standards were more typical of the average high school in the US? Perhaps the observations of students at such schools may be different from those at typical high schools in the US.</p>
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<p>Yes, but I’ve seen similar profiles from college classmates with low GPA/high SATs from regular high schools who, on average, had far fewer issues with adjusting to the workload at my LAC. </p>
<p>A reason why my tendency is to assume someone attended an academically rigorous high school/program/track which depressed HS grades when I see a profile like the OP’s…especially considering his SATs are as high as 2200. </p>
<p>This is furthered by seeing and hearing about how there’s so much variability in grading and academic rigor that comparing GPAs of kids from different high schools is an almost Sisyphean task. </p>
<p>One friend who knows someone working at UT-Austin admissions has recently remarked on FB how the Top 10%/8% automatic admit policy for in-staters has meant those admitted on that scheme vary wildly in terms of academic preparedness. Some are superbly well-prepared…others have ended up being completely overwhelmed. Does GPA really measure how well one does in college considering the wide variability in quality of in-state public/private schools?</p>
<p>cobrat,</p>
<p>Historically, the HS transcript has been the best predictor for all measures of success in college including, among others, freshman GPA, overall undergraduate GPA, sophomore retention, and completion in four years. Standardized exam scores add little (if anything) to the evaluation. For a lot of fun reading on the topic, start with the publications referenced at [The</a> National Center for Fair & Open Testing | FairTest](<a href=“http://www.fairtest.org%5DThe”>http://www.fairtest.org)</p>
<p>“From what I’ve seen, those with low GPA/high SATs have had far fewer issues adapting to college level academics” - I beg to differ, especially for students in tough Eng or CS programs.</p>
<p>Poor GPA is in the eye of the beholder, but in the days of AP School Bus and IB Recess the grade arms race for admission is leaving good kids out while admitting more of those who play the grade boosting game (at state flagships or a lot of privates).</p>
<p>My suggestion is to see where the OP kid can get in as far as flagship state schools that are inexpensive enough and thus affordable, and then either transfer or preferably go to grad school. </p>
<p>Computer Science (a major I’m intimately familiar with) is one of these things that you either get it or you don’t, and top 20 versus Directional State U does not make as much of a difference as people may think (unless one is set on working for Apple, Google, or Goldman Saks). If you’re good you’re good. If you’re bad at it, and manage to get in and graduate from CMU or UMich or what not, you won’t last long (and be made into a manager :)) for a variety of reasons. </p>
<p>Pity that CompSci admissions are not like architecture admissions (submit code portfolio)…</p>
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<p>Toughness is also in the eye of the beholder. I have not checked assignment difficulty in CS classes in recent years, but back in the dark ages we routinely compared assignments given to undergrads and grads at Cajun State against those assigned to UWaterloo, UTexas, and Case Western (all places where I had Elbonian buddies). I was amazed to see that Cajun State’s CompSci assignment difficulty was at least as tough as the much better schools, and often tougher, and in many cases ours were individual assignments versus team assignments… That does not mean we were better, of course, but CompSci is not a typical major since it depends heavily on projects and the like. If you can’t do the projects, chances are you can’t do them in general, not just at the top schools. All I know is that whoever got out of Cajun State was a darned good coder back then… </p>
<p>Tougher schools also means the tougher schools probably have better profs who can explain the tough stuff better… While at Purdue I took a graduate Simulation Theory class with an absolute marvel of a Prof. and he was amazing in making the stuff easy to comprehend… We had a few good profs at Cajun State but at Purdue we had people that were cutting edge, so while the program was orders of magnitude tougher it was really no big deal as the prof was that much better as a teacher.</p>
<p>Turbo makes some good points. CS is tough at most schools, and CS aptitude is key. Not sure that can be linked to GPA or to SATs. (In my very limited and unscientific sampling, kids that like Rubiks cube do better).</p>
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<p>Considering fairtest.org is an organization with a definitive agenda and have allied themselves with organizations that have had a history of trying to/actually eliminate* academically rigorous magnet schools, you’ll excuse me if I take what they say with several tons of salt. :)</p>
<p>It also doesn’t help that I grew up with neighbors who remembered what happened when such groups/sympathizers succeeded in “increasing fairness” in what was once a highly esteemed public university system. Within a decade, it went from being a system with high academic reputation attracting the best working-class NYC area students to being known as a decaying system inundated with remedial/mediocre students and the school of last resort for any NYC area kid who’s not near/at the bottom of their graduating HS class. </p>
<p>*i.e. The old Townsend Harris High school in NYC. </p>
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<p>Coincidentally, with the exception of a couple of pre-meds and a random econ major, every other HS classmate with 2.x GPAs and high SATs who excelled at top 50 or even top 20 colleges were mostly math/physics/engineering/CS majors.</p>
<p>However, your anecdotal evidence from an unusual (elite) high school does not match what the large scale studies of UC students have found with respect to the predictive power of high school grades versus test scores on college grades.</p>
<p>cobrat,</p>
<p>Mostly I chuckle when I read about all your “observations”, but really, did you and your classmates at Oberlin discuss GPA and test scores from HS? Thanks for the big laugh to start my day.</p>