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<p>Love this! And oh-so-true not only in CS ;)</p>
<p>Gloworm - I was going to post the same. I don’t think my kids could tell you their friends’ GPA or SAT scores. I have 4 niece/nephews, I don’t think I know precisely their SAT scores. Cobras just seem to know A LOT of people and A LOT of their business. When my kids get together with their friends, they have better things to talk about than their grades. I would consider it quite abnormal if they did.</p>
<p>^I think it really may be the culture of the school he attended. And it leads to massive cheating scandals. My sons heard about some of their friend’s scores, but they certainly didn’t remember them for long. I know that my older son’s first PSAT scores were higher than anyone else in his class, because his brand new to the school GC told us - she was tickled pink and we were happy that it meant she had a very good first impression of him!</p>
<p>It’s quite amazing not only that cobrat knows classmates’ GPAs and test scores, but that he knows them for so very many people that he has enough data with which he can form patterns - low GPA / high SATs, rigor of high school, rigor of college, success at said college, success in career … </p>
<p>Of course, I don’t believe it for a minute. I think he looks at one or two friends who have done x and extrapolates it. Discussions of SAT and high school GPA and the like simply don’t occur in real life the way he thinks it does. Here’s what most people know of a classmate: “he’s doing well and enjoying himself at XYZ college.” The end.</p>
<p>My experience in CS (and engineering) has often been that the top 20 schools make it A LOT easier to get the first job due to brand name recognition of the school but once you have gone past that it’s individual skills and experience that matter most, and aptitude. </p>
<p>Correspondingly, employers may not see the value of a top 20 school unless they have a need for it (or its prestige, gravitas, etc). Thankfully private industry has not become academia (yet) and if Goldman Saks does not even want to consider my Cajun State CS degree, their loss. But I have worked alongside top 20 school alums (and heck, now I have a #2 ranked school degree as well :)) and if you can’t do the job well, the massive alumni program going back to the 1600s, Gothic buildings, and oh-so-desirable sweat shirt won’t do you much good.</p>
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<p>This certainly proved true for many of my D’s high school peers. She went to a public magnet school in NJ (same state as the OP) and many of her classmates followed this exact pattern. A lot of NJ high schoolers apply to top 20 schools because many of these institutions are within driving distance, but most do not get in.</p>
<p>Actually I’ve seen some spreadsheets on line for schools which include detailed lists of scores, where they applied and where they were accepted. If you attended the school you could probably figure out a lot from them. Some people also don’t forget numbers. I gave my DH all sorts of statistics for the Yankees recently which was pretty funny since he knows I have zippo interest in baseball. I just listen to too much NPR!</p>
<p>I think it’s fine if the OP wants to find a better brand name, although Rutgers is pretty well known. I’m in the midwest and back when there was chatter about Rutgers and the Big 10 quite a few people in my at the time time company (global Fortune 50) thought Rutgers was in the Ivy League. Frankly I am always bemused by parents so very concerned about WHERE their kids go to school. I always was and still am focused on whether my kids FINISH the degree. I spent too many years connected to HR and recruiting and know that where the degree is earned is secondary.</p>
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<p>Mostly through being an independent academic tutor to classmates, especially first-years who suddenly got thrown for a loop after their first paper/midterm was returned or their first grade report. That always came up with them wondering how could they be struggling in their courses when they were top 5%-10%, had great transcripts with high GPAs, and HS academic awards. </p>
<p>Then I’d find that they “didn’t test well” and that their mostly well-off suburban high schools were of the kind where they didn’t have much/any meaningful homework/exams or their ability to be “people pleasers” probably charmed HS teachers into giving them higher grades than warranted. </p>
<p>Some also came from homes with parents who “didn’t believe in “busywork” homework assignments” during K-12 upon knowing them further in person and hearing about them from other exasperated undergrad classmates. The latter happened even after college as I’d hear about them being unable to hold down jobs or complete “must get it done” mundane tasks of life like thoroughly answering and submitting one’s IRS tax return in a timely manner/at all.</p>
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<p>From what I’ve observed and heard from my New Jersey cousins, it’s a mix of the common stigma of it being a local state university that’s not well-regarded among their in-staters*…especially those in upper/upper-middle class suburbs and common somewhat truthful perceptions that it’s a huge school with a party-school-like atmosphere. </p>
<p>Saw some of that when visiting the New Brunswick campus…the main campus of the school. They also have a campus in Camden, but it’s regarded as a secondary satellite campus for those who weren’t able to make it into New Brunswick campus colleges or need to remain in that area for family/job reasons**. </p>
<p>The latter tends to be a big minus among undergrads who fit the profile of those who prefer LACs/small universities with little/no big sports/party school atmosphere you’d see at schools like Rutgers or Ohio State. </p>
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<li>Funny part is that Rutgers tends to be better regarded the further you get away from New Jersey. And some of their graduate departments for PhD are tippy top like Philosophy(top 3-5).</li>
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<p>** Camden is located right next to Philly. Separated only by a river.</p>
<p>Interesting Cobrat…that you found out the standardized test scores for students you tutored? I can tell you that my daughter (an excellent student) did use her college tutorial services at times. If a tutor has even sniffed about WHY my kid was seeking these services, I would have reported this to the tutorial supervisors. It is not the business of the tutors to inquire about test scores, and if the subject came up…a professional of a tutor would say that this was not a topic for discussion.</p>
<p>Also, just saying that their scores were “lower” is meaningless. At your LAC, a student could think their 1300/1600 SAT was low. It’s not.</p>
<p>And again I say, schools are increasingly becoming SAT optional because they Have discovers through collection of DATA that actual school performance is a better indicator of college success than a one time sitting for a multiple choice test.</p>
<p>"And again I say, schools are increasingly becoming SAT optional because they Have discovers through collection of DATA that actual school performance is a better indicator of college success than a one time sitting for a multiple choice test. "</p>
<p>DS school (Bates) was one of the first to go test optional - 20 years or so ago and their data has very similar findings in regards to performance.
<a href=“Opinion | Report the SAT, or Not - The New York Times”>Opinion | Report the SAT, or Not - The New York Times;
<p>Published: August 3, 2009</p>
<p>To the Editor:</p>
<p>Re “The Other Side of ‘Test Optional’ ” (Education Life, July 26):</p>
<p>Lynn O’Shaughnessy acknowledges that colleges with optional testing policies are seeking a more holistic approach to admissions, but gets to the point quickly: “Cynics cite additional motives.”</p>
<p>Bates College has been SAT-optional for 25 years, and our experience raises an important question: How predictive of achievement and success are these tests?</p>
<p>We have published our research, including average scores of submitters and non-submitters (collected after enrollment), for more than 20 years. The findings have been stunningly consistent: non-submitters, with significantly lower SATs, earn Bates G.P.A.’s that are within five one-hundredths of a G.P.A. point of submitters, and graduate at rates within one-tenth of 1 percent of submitters.</p>
<p>Reliance on testing may disadvantage students who have proved themselves on many measures of merit. Here is a less cynical motive for optional testing: America must develop more opportunities for all talented students.</p>
<p>William C. Hiss
Lewiston, Me., July 27, 2009</p>
<p>The writer was dean or vice president for admissions at Bates College from 1978 to 2000.</p>
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<p>Never sniffed about their stats or even asked about them…they volunteered it in the midst of their befuddlement over their unexpected poor grades. What I wrote above were my own mental observations. </p>
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<p>Overall, no. But in the context of some colleges or even some high schools, it could be. </p>
<p>I also recalled some veteran teachers making observations pairing SATs with approximate GPAs. For instance, they said someone with a 90/100 HS average or greater, but SATs below the pre-1995 1250-1300 to be someone whose GPA is inflated in relation to their score(s). </p>
<p>Hence, the UT-Austin plaintiff’s publicly reported HS GPA of 3.5 and post-1995 SATs of 1180 would be considered by such teachers and some adcoms I’ve known as a sign said student attended an academically weak high school with grade inflation and/or lack of meaningfully rigorous school/homework. If I had said such a student would try suing to get back at a premiere state flagship like UT due to “reverse discrimination” with those stats to such teachers 10-15 years ago, they’d thought I was pulling something out of a paper like the Onion…not reciting actual future events.</p>
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<p>Well…if you were acting in a professional manner, you would have told them that was not germain to your job of tutoring them…and would have gotten back to the job at hand…doing the tutoring.</p>
<p>Sorry, but students having academic difficulty will come up with all kinds of reasons why. For all you know, these students actually had perfect scores on their SATs and just wanted to use a “low score” as a reason for seeking tutorial services.</p>
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<p>Making up information like that wouldn’t have served a purpose or made a difference as I was tutoring on a private basis. If I could help them, set up a mutually agreeable schedule, and they were able to pay my rates it would have worked regardless.</p>
<p>Re: students seeking tutoring</p>
<p>Remember that this is a selected sample of students who are having trouble in college; this does not mean that all, or even most, students with high HS GPA but relatively lower test scores are having trouble in college. Sometimes, that combination may be due to HS grade inflation or lack of rigor (which is what standardized tests are intended to find and deter* and which the students seeking tutoring help are more likely to be a sample of), but it appears that there are plenty of other cases that result in this combination, based on the weaker predictive power of test scores versus HS GPA on college GPA. Note that standardized tests on subject matter (i.e. AP tests and SAT-S tests) have better predictive power than the SAT-R.</p>
<p>*It is possible that the test-optional schools are free-riding on the deterrent that standardized tests give against HS grade inflation and lack of course rigor; if there were no standardized tests, then HS grade inflation would likely be greater because it would not be as obvious.</p>
<p>D1 did a lot of tutoring when she was in college to high school students. I don’t think she would ask anyone for their SAT scores.</p>
<p>Just an FYI…there are high SAT students who seek tutoring too. They wouldn’t likely TELL you their SAT scores. </p>
<p>And for the record, I think that students who seek tutorial services are smart to do so. Most schools have some kind of tutorial services offered at NO CHARGE to their students.</p>
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<p>True, but they are limited in scheduled availability and limits on how many times one can avail themselves of such services. </p>
<p>One shocking thing about the latter was how several friends who went to Columbia for undergrad were limited to 3 one hour sessions/semester with a writing tutor unless they dealt with massive red tape to get a rare extension. </p>
<p>Something which was later confirmed by a college classmate who served as one of their writing tutors while pursuing a graduate degree there. One would think that a private elite university would be able to offer much more than that.</p>
<p>About Rutgers not getting “props” from the locals – I live here and have friends who work there – I think it’s a combination of factors. It seems to be a solid flagship, academically. But it does not inspire the sense of attachment and fervor that some state flagships do, in other states. Often those flagships don’t have schools like Princeton, Penn and Columbia within commuting distance. I’ve noticed those schools also tend to fill a professional football or basketball void for their locals.</p>
<p>Ben Franklin said that NJ was a keg tapped at both ends. There’s the Philadelphia-oriented part and the NY-oriented part. These have been socially distinct since the Revolution, when people in the Philadelphia end sympathized, and people in the NY end remained loyal to the Crown. Between NY and Phila, New Jerseyans identify with two or three often powerful professional sports franchises, for every sport. Rutgers sits in the middle of the state and doesn’t get a lot of love or attention from non-alums. The sprawling New Brunswick and Piscataway campus is made up of 4 or 5 campuses, really, with students riding buses among them all day, and no strong sense of place or iconic visual identity. The campus isn’t a scenic tourist draw like Princeton, and it mostly isn’t integrated into the town like Princeton or Penn. There’s not much reason to set foot on most of the campus unless you have business there. One part of it is in downtown New Brunswick, but that part can be viewed essentially as a source of congestion on your way to the courthouse, as opposed to something that lends charm and character to the town. (I’m sure some will disagree with that opinion.) There are also the Newark and Camden campuses.</p>
<p>Rutgers is great for many, academically, but it’s not the kind of school that the general public gets emotionally worked up over.</p>