<p>Holy Cross, Colgate, and Bucknell.</p>
<p>Does anyone have a college breakdown list / link for </p>
<ul>
<li>Yale Law School </li>
<li>Stanford Law School </li>
</ul>
<p>similar to the one on Harvard Law School's website?</p>
<p>Problem when comparing Cal, Michigan and other large public universities is that most of the students in the school have ZERO desire to go to law school. Therefore since these people don't even apply to any law school, the percentage of students accepted to say Harvard Law would be lower compared to that of a school such as Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Cal, for example has many student smajoring in subjects that would never lead to law school such as MCB, which is for the Pre-Med students and is the largest major on campus. Also, many hard science and math/stat majors would not apply in additon to most of our architects, environmental science people, business majors, and a good portion of our humanities majors.</p>
<p>Really, what we need to have is the amount of students accepted at a place like Harvard Law from a school like Cal compared to the amount of Cal students that applied there and you can replace Cal from every single school to see what colleges have the best placement percentage in terms of students that actually applied.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Problem when comparing Cal, Michigan and other large public universities is that most of the students in the school have ZERO desire to go to law school. Therefore since these people don't even apply to any law school, the percentage of students accepted to say Harvard Law would be lower compared to that of a school such as Dartmouth.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Really... interesting. It couldn't be possible that some of these people don't bother applying to Harvard Law School because they don't think they can get in?</p>
<p>So what you are saying is that if you gave every single graduating Cal senior (regardless of their post-graduate plans) a no-strings "free option" to attend Harvard Law School - basically no one would take Harvard up on that offer? that this yield would be close to ZERO?</p>
<p>Absolute rubbish. I'd say that plenty of people would snatch up that option in a heartbeat.</p>
<p>I think that Rice U is equally good at placeing its students as Duke and Penn, if not better.</p>
<p>Institutions Represented</p>
<p>American University in Bulgaria [Bulgaria] 1
Amherst College 9
Arizona State University 1
Ateneo De Manila University [Philippines] 1
Bar-Ilan University [Israel] 1
Bates College 1
Benedictine College 1
Boston College 3
Bowdoin College 1
Bowling Green State University 1
Brandeis University 4
Brigham Young University 3
Brown University 17
Carleton College [Minnesota] 1
Catholic University of America 1
Cedarville College 1
Central Connecticut State University 1
China Institute of Metrology [People’s Republic of China] 1
City University of New York [Queens College] 1
Claremont McKenna College 2
Clemson University 1
Colgate University 1
College of Charleston 1
College of the Canyons 1
College of William and Mary 3
Columbia University 18
Columbia University [Barnard College] 3
Cornell University 6
Dartmouth College 13
Deep Springs College 1
Denison University 1
Depauw University 1
Duke University 13
Emory University 4
Fairfield University 1
Florida International University 1
Foreign Affairs College [People’s Republic of China] 1
Franciscan University of Steubenville 1
Fudan University [People’s Republic of China] 1
Furman University 2
Georgetown University 7
Grinnell College 1
Hampton University 1
Hanyang University [Japan] 1
Harding University 1
Harvard University 89
Haverford College 1
Hebrew University of Jerusalem [Israel] 1
Hillsdale College 1
Hobe Sound Bible College 1
Howard University 1
Illinois State University 1
Illinois Wesleyan University 1
Indiana University 1
Instituto Technológico Autónomo de México [Mexico] 1
Johns Hopkins University 2
Lehigh University 1
Leopold-Franzens Universität Innsbruck [Austria] 1
Lewis and Clark College 1
Libera Università Internazionale degli Studi Sociali Guido Carli in Rome [Italy] 1
Louisiana State University 1
Ludwig-Maximillans-Universität München [Germany] 1
Makerere University [Uganda] 1
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 3
McGill University [Canada] 2
McMaster University [Canada] 2
Michigan State University 1
Middlebury College 2
Moldova State University [Moldova] 1
Morehouse College 2
Mount Holyoke College 1
National Law School of India University [India] 2
National Taiwan University [Taiwan] 4
National University of Singapore [Singapore] 1
New York University 3
North Carolina State University 3
Northeastern University 1
Northwestern University 7
Oberlin College 2
Ohio State University 3
Ohio Wesleyan University 1
Peking University [People’s Republic of China] 2
Pennsylvania State University 1
Pomona College 2
Pontificia Universidad Católica del Perú [Peru] 1
Princeton University 34
Rice University 2
Rutgers, State University of New Jersey 2
Saint John’s College [Minnesota] 1
Saint Olaf College 2
Sarah Lawrence College 1
Scripps College 1
Seoul National University [Republic of Korea] 1
Simons Rock of Bard College 1
Stanford University 42
State University of New York at Binghamton 1
State University of New York at Buffalo 1
State University of New York at Stony Brook 1
Swarthmore College 6
Tel Aviv University [Israel] 1
Temple University 1
Thammasat University [Thailand] 1
Trinity University [Texas] 2
Tufts University 1
Tulane University 2
United States Naval Academy 1
Universidad de Buenos Aires [Argentina] 2
Universidad de Chile [Chile] 1
Universidad Diego Portales [Chile] 1
Universidade de São Paulo [Brazil] 1
Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Sul [Brazil] 1
Universität Hamburg [Germany] 1
Universitat Pompeu Fabra [Spain] 1
Universität Zürich [Switzerland] 1
Université de Fribourg [Switzerland] 1
Université de Liège [Belgium] 1
Université Panthéon-Assas [France] 1
Université de Paris [France] 2
University College Dublin [Ireland] 1
University of Alabama 1
University of Alberta [Canada] 1
University of Arkansas 2
University of Botswana [Botswana] 1
University of California at Berkeley 16
University of California at Davis 1
University of California at Irvine 2
University of California at Los Angeles 7
University of California at San Diego 2
University of Chicago 7
University of Cincinnati 1
University of Colorado 1
University of Delaware 1
University of Florida 2
University of Georgia 4
University of Haifa [Israel] 1
University of Hartford 1
University of Illinois 2
University of Jordan [Jordan] 1
University of Kansas 1
University of Maryland 2
University of Michigan at Ann Arbor 5
University of Missouri 1
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 5
University of North Florida 1
University of Notre Dame [Indiana] 7
University of Ottawa [Canada] 1
University of Pennsylvania 6
University of Puget Sound 1
University of Richmond 1
University of South Carolina 1
University of Southern California 5
University of Tartu [Estonia] 1
University of Texas at Austin 5
University of Texas at El Paso 2
University of Toronto [Canada] 4
University of Tulsa 1
University of Utah 1
University of Vermont 1
University of Virginia 10
University of Washington 5
University of Western Australia [Australia] 1
University of Wisconsin at Madison 5
Uppsala University 1
Vanderbilt University 3
Vassar College 1
Villanova University 1
Washington and Lee University 1
Washington University [Missouri] 3
Webster University 1
Wellesley College 1
Wesleyan University 7
West Virginia University 2
Wheeling College 1
Williams College 12
Yale University 86
Yeshiva University 2</p>
<p>Here we go again! Don't look know, I sense a "CAL FANATIC" wave coming!</p>
<p>I think the way to try to determine this debate more clearly is to see how many students from each school applies to certain law schools and how many are accepted. I don't think level of detail is available in any way, is it? </p>
<p>However, if 35% of Harvard applicants are accepted into Yale Law School and only 10% of Northwestern applicants are accepted into Yale Law School, what is the conclusion? That Harvard does better than Northwestern because it's Harvard or because the students at Harvard are smarter and more accomplished and if a few of these had gone to Northwestern they would have still gotten into Yale Law School. Maybe, going to Northwestern instead of Harvard automatically makes one a worse candidate no matter what.</p>
<p>It is true that some people who desire to go to Harvard Law know they couldn't get in, but the fact is most of the school population has no desire to go to law school:</p>
<p>Would an engineer prepare for the LSAT, when grinding away to stay out of academic probation? Would the many pre-meds study for the LSAT when also studying the MCAT? How many math majors actually would put in time to even study for the LSAT? Same for the science majors? How many humanities majors even want to be a lawyer?</p>
<p>Many people at Cal don't desire at all to go to Law School and would NEVER study for the LSAT. I mean you can't get into law school without studying for the LSAT.</p>
<p>simbajune, thanks for the link. is there a similar one for Stanford Law?</p>
<p>gellino, i've not seen such a database - but i don't think that it would change the outcome radically.</p>
<p>Yes Golden Bear, but we are taking that into account! Michigan is SIX times dartmouth, include only the arts and sciences and its still 4 times bigger. Cal is MUCH bigger than Brown! In every top professional school list (and undergrad ranking), Dartmouth, Brown, Duke, Penn, Columbia, Amherst, and Williams all dominate after HYPS.</p>
<p>Is Berkeley really so much disproportionately focused on pre-med or engineering compared to other schools that it's not appropriate to look at its law school placement? It's unbelievable that ~ 44% of Yale Law School comes from one of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford.</p>
<p>Berkeley is not so much disproportionately focuses on engineering due to the College of Engineering's hard cap on amount of students allowed in it, but is disproportionately focused on Pre-Med due to a lack of limit of the students that could be in the Pre-Med majors.</p>
<p>Many, many students that start at Berkeley are on the Pre-Med track and typically are in extremely difficult weeders that thin them out due to a bad GPA and so even if they wanted to switch out to a Pre-Law track of classes, it would be difficult to be accepted with a damaged GPA so they don't even think about doing Law.</p>
<p>Besides Engineering, Berkeley has the College of Natural Resource (Environmental Science), Chemistry, Environmental Design (Architecture) and the Haas School of Business. Most of these students would not want to go to law school just due to their major they are in. This also applies to the Computer Science & Hard Sciences, in additio to the numerous students we have in more obscure majors such as Scandavian and Celtic Studies that normally would have no interest in Law.</p>
<p>This does not even include the fact that many people in the so called "Pre-Law" Majors such as History, Poli Sci, Philosophy and etc. don't want to become lawyers at all.</p>
<p>Another thing is that many students at Cal want to become Business Majors, a severly impacted major. Haas admits 50% of applicants that bother to apply, with most of the people just not even bothering to apply due to poor grades. These students most likely would take Econ and since they are business minded, most likely would not study for the LSAT.</p>
<p>And finally, our junior-transfers. These students are set in what they are studying and as entering juniors would have decided to take or not take the LSAT and apply to Law School already. They are a significant part of the graduating class due to state law and also negatively affect the percentage of law school admits compared to the graduating class.</p>
<p>Basically, the criteria and process for calculating law school admits hurts large schools (Berkeley, UCLA, UMich, UT) and schools with a wide array of majors especially technical and more vocational majors (Cornell, CMU) that are all top schools.</p>
<p>Top schools (attended) by Michigan UGs </p>
<p>Name of School Applicants Admitted Attended<br>
UNIV OF MICHIGAN 449 107 65<br>
WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY 317 173 62<br>
MICHIGAN ST UNIV DETROIT COLL 209 126 38<br>
UNIV OF DETROIT MERCY 133 109 36<br>
THOMAS M.COOLEY LAW SCHOOL 119 98 29<br>
BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL 103 40 25<br>
DE PAUL UNIVERSITY 220 85 21<br>
GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY 277 56 19<br>
CHICAGO-KENT COLLEGE OF LAW 176 71 18<br>
LOYOLA UNIVERSITY CHICAGO 137 46 17<br>
AMERICAN UNIVERSITY 205 54 16<br>
JOHN MARSHALL LAW SCH CHICAGO 89 54 15</p>
<p>Read into it as you'd like.</p>
<p>My point Slipper, is that you cannot determine how good a university is by merely looking at how many students it places into Harvard Law or Yale Law simply because the number of successful candidates from each school is rather limited. </p>
<p>Like I said, in the best of cases (not including H,P,S and Y graduates), only 15-20 students from a particular school will enroll into Harvard Law each year and only 2-6 will enroll into Yale Law each year. </p>
<p>And Slipper, using the word "dominate" makes it sound that schools like Penn, Dartmouth, Brown etc... are sending a huge chuck of their classes to Harvard and Yale Law. That is not even close to the case. Like I said, at best, those universities are sending no more than 20 of their students to those top 2 Law schools combined annually. That's 20 out of 300+ Law school applicants. Hardly "dominant" if you ask me. Obviously, 20 out of 300-600 is better than 20 out of 1,000, but at the end of the day, we are talking about a small percentage of successfull applicants. </p>
<p>I think it is more a propos to look at how many students end up at top 10 Law Schools and top 25 Law Schools as a percentage of students who actually apply to Law school.</p>
<p>Transfer, those Michigan numbers are misleading. I am sure if you look at most universities, even the likes of Cornell, Northwestern, Penn etc..., you will see that the top 10 Law school destinations will be to Law schools ranked between #50 and #100. Of course, that is not to say that one shouldn't look at the top 10 destination, but it is also important to see how well Michigan does with top 25 Law schools. </p>
<p>TOP 10 LAW SCHOOLS
Columbia University: 7 enrolled
Cornell University: 4 enrolled
Duke University: 2 enrolled
Georgetown University: 7 enrolled
Harvard University: 13 enrolled
New York University: 6 enrolled
Northwestern University: 13 enrolled
Stanford University: 2 enrolled
University of Chicago: 7 enrolled
University of Michigan: 65 enrolled
University of Pennsylvania: 2 enrolled
University of Virginia: 5 enrolled
Yale University: 3 enrolled
TOTAL: 137 </p>
<p>TOP 25 LAW SCHOOLS
Boston College: 5
Boston University: 9
College of William and Mary: 3
Emory University: 8
Fordham University: 9
George Washington University: 19
University of California-Los Angeles: 3
University of Illinois-Urbana Champaign: 6
University of Minnesota: 6
University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill: 4
University of Notre Dame: 5
University of Southern California: 5
University of Texas-Austin: 7
University of Wisconsin: 10
Vanderbilt University: 2
Washington University: 6
TOTAL: 107</p>
<p>Out of roughly 1,000 Michigan students applying to Law schools, 15% end up at top 10 Law schools and an additional 10% end up at top 25 Law schools. In total, 25% of Michigan Law school applicants end up at top 25 Law schools. It obviously isn't nearly as high as the ratios coming out of Harvard or Yale and it isn't qite as high a ratio coming out of Duke or Dartmouth, but it is definitely a pretty high ratio when compared to most universities. That's a ratio comparable to those coming out of Cornell, Northwestern and Penn. I doubt any state university other than Cal and UVa comes close.</p>
<p>For pre-law students, I would argue a few selective private schools are possibly worth it for a "leg up" in the admissions game. The local state flagship is always a superior option as that the LSAT is so important.</p>
<p>Now, given the nature of the University of Michigan student body, I would argue the top 25%tile should be competitive for top 25 law schools. a 31+ ACT, top 10% of your HS class, is the type of student who has a shot in the future at these places. With that aside, you should investigate the numbers on the michigan pre-law website. None of the average LSAT/GPA stats for admits from Michigan at these schools are much different from the averages reported from these schools. For example, the average LSAT at Michigan is around 168, the same average a Michigan UG student needed for admission. It's not a "Michigan advantage" as much as it is ALREADY smart, driven students. That is the important argument I have here. I think you have more value from a school that reports frequently lower LSAT/GPAs for admits than the averages published by the intended law school. </p>
<p>And, while this has limited credibility and I expect it to be dismissed as such, I have personal connections to a former member of a top tier law school's admission cmte and he very clearly told me that the differences between schools such as Virgina and Ohio State are marginal. Only equal numbers require looking more in-depth. Just something to throw out there.</p>
<p>Transfer, adcoms view applicants from top universities equally. I should know, I have had extensive discussions with several. I agree with you that Michigan students are not at an advantage when it comes to graduate school admissions. But are students from other top universities given a speacial break? Is a 3.3 non-URM candidate with a 163 LSAT get into a top 10 Law school just because she/he attended a top private university? Definitely not. I am willing to bet that the average LSATs and GPAs of successful applicants from the Browns and the Chicagos of the world are not different from the average LSATs and GPAs of the successful applicants from the Michigans and UVas of the world. Yes, students from top universities are given more credit, but beyond that, the adcom wants to see potential which extends significantly beyond one's undergraduate institution.</p>
<p>Truth, but everything I said above is important to note.</p>
<p>Choosing a school that may cost 30-60K more (say a student deciding between OOS Michigan and in state Iowa) would be better off attending Iowa, "doing better" (as convential CC wisdom would have it, a student admitted to both should be at the top of Iowa), and save the money on law school when the average Michigan UG is given no statistically significant numerical advantage.</p>