Good undergrads for law school

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I am a junior and I know that I definitely want to be a lawyer. I think I have the stats to be a pretty competitive applicant to schools such as U of Chicago or Notre Dame (Please let me know if I'm wrong!). I don't care much for math or science, and have my heart set on getting a liberal arts degree and going to law school. </p>

<p>I'm trying to narrow my list of colleges down to about nine or so. I'm looking at one safety, three to four matches, and five reaches (shoot for the moon, right?). What's your opinion on my list? Am I thinking too highly of myself as an applicant and I'm wasting my time looking at these schools? Do you have any suggestions for reaches? </p>

<p>Safety
U of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign</p>

<p>Matches
U of Chicago
Notre Dame
Northwestern
NYU</p>

<p>Reaches
Here's where I'm totally lost. I wanted to apply to a couple ivies on the off-chance I get in (Harvard, Yale, Columbia are the three I'm looking at). I also wanted to apply to at least one of the "little ivies" (Amherst, Wesleyan, Williams, etc.), but honestly, they all look the same to me. I know I'd prefer at least a suburban, if not urban environment, and a high placement rate for law school is a must. Financial aid, I'm definitely going to apply, but my parents told me that they'll find a way to pay for college, and I trust them on that. </p>

<p>Anyway, I know all of this means nothing without some stats, so:</p>

<p>SAT 2220 (740 CR, 800 Math, 680 Writing) <-- retook, waiting on score
SAT II Math IIC (800) <-- Am taking Lit, US
ACT Not taken yet, but I figure 31-35, will find out in April
PSAT 228 (Soph), 226 (Junior) <-- I went 80 CR, 80 Math, 66 Writing :(
GPA 3.8ish, falling fast thanks to Calc BC (taking as a junior), 4.9 weighted
AP None yet, taking Physics B, Calc BC, Language, and US History in May
Work Worked in a nursing home with Alzheimer's and dementia patients (Unique exp?)
Volunteer I have been volunteering at a nursing home for almost 2 years now, playing the violin for the residents and shooting pool with them. Relay for Life, Special Olympics, various charity concerts, volunteer usher at a local performing center. Also, I serve as a counselor at a leadership camp for junior high students over the summer for a week without pay.
EC/Awards Weak... I'm in a lot of things, but not much leadership. StuCo (committee chair), Math team (6th place medal at state), Varsity WYSE team (1 of 3 juniors, worth mentioning?), NHS, Class Council, Newspaper (Page editor since soph year, only soph page editor, worth mentioning?), Student Action for Education (basically a service club), won a local writing contest, Orchestra Secretary, Tri-M (Modern Music Masters), District honors orchestra, Math Team regionals and sectionals 2nd place, Regionals finalist for speech team, Oralist for math team my sophomore year (usually reserved for seniors), 1st degree black belt in tae kwon do, JV tennis team.</p>

<p>I know my EC's and awards are especially weak. I'm involved in so many things and it's hard to invest myself in just one or two. The problem is, I really do enjoy all these different activities. I'm not a great musician and I know I'll never make All-State Orchestra or give a concerto performance at Carnegie Hall, or publish a novel, win a Westinghouse award, etc. but I really do enjoy all these different activities. I plan on trying to get a few more leadership roles in the clubs I'm in my senior year, and also, my English teacher nominated me to compete in the NCTE writing competition, so hopefully I'll be able to add some more prestige to that section. If you're wondering why I'm in math and science related clubs and I score best on the math sections on my standardized tests when I said earlier that I'm not a math and science person, well, my hatred for math only started with Calc A and Chem last year. :) </p>

<p>Also, I have a few state-level achievements, but they were from junior high. Are they worth anything? I was a district representative (one of eight for the entire state) and respresented over 55 schools on the state student council board, and I also received a Superior ranking from the state history fair (and a letter of recognition from my local senator (of the state senate, not the US Senate). I think these are pretty worthy achievements, but both occured my 8th grade year - any chance they can still play into the admissions process?</p>

<p>As for academic rigor, I'm definitely taking the most challenging courses my high school has to offer - I'm signed up for 6 AP's next year. I'm also applying to Harvard's summer school program this year. The problem is, I've been on a downward trend since freshman year. I had 3 B's my sophomore year, and already with only first semester of junior year, 2 B's and a C (in Calc). Ouch, I know. I'm working my butt off this semester to get my grades up. But also, I've taken a huge courseload - I have enough credits to graduate right now, and I'll be graduating with almost 1.5x the credits you need to graduate. Will colleges look at my courseload selection? And also, will 5's on AP exams offset my weak grades (The B's and C's were all from AP classes)? Unfortunately, my rank is definitely laughable (9% out of ~700).</p>

<p>This turned a lot more long-winded than I originally intended. I didn't mean for it to turn into a judge-me sort of thing, but I really am curious. In conclusion, the schools that are on my list, are they realistic? What can I do to improve my chances between now and next year? What reach schools have a good undergrad program that leads to high acceptance rates into law school? Can I stick those Jr High achievements onto my app?</p>

<p>Thanks so much for taking the time to read all of this!</p>

2

<p>Amherst!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>

3

<p>You seem to have a strong shot at some of the top schools. I recommend Brown, Duke, and Dartmouth all of which have tremendous placement into top law schools as reaches. Harvard and Yale will be tough.</p>

4

<p>Slipper, what do you define as top schools? Do you think Harvard and Yale are completely out of reach? How about Amherst/Williams/Swarthmore?</p>

5

<p>Anywhere you can get out with a good gpa and little or no debt (plus enjoy yourself a little bit). Seriously, your major and the depth of your undergrad's curriculum carries virtually no weight in the admissions process. Law schools are total number-mongers and want the high gpa + lsat combo. Given the same lsat score, a 3.7 from UIUC will be looked upon more favorably than a 3.0 from Chicago any day of the week.</p>

6

<p>Here are some of the undergraduate schools represented at Yale Law School; the number is the number of students now enrolled at the school:</p>

<p>Amherst 9
Boston College 3
BYU 3
Brown 17
Columbia 18
Cornell 6
Dartmouth 13
Duke 13
Emory 4
Georgetown 4
Harvard 89
MIT 3
NYU 3
Northwestern 7
Princeton 34
Stanford 42
Berkeley 16
U of Chicago 7
UPENN 6
U of Illinois 2
Yale 86</p>

<p>Keep in mind that how large a school is does not necessarily reflect the number of applicants from that school.</p>

7

<p>Actually, that just backs up my point... go to a grade-inflated undergrad. Compare Cornell & Chicago to Brown, Columbia & Dartmouth. Roughly equivalent student body sizes and entering (H.S. gpa & SAT) qualifications, yet the former two are known for grade "deflation" compared to other top schools.</p>

<p>Also, the LSAT is the great equalizer... relatively few students at even a BC or NYU level institution are brilliant enough to crank out the 170+ LSAT score to even be in the mix for YLS admission.</p>

8

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=314537%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=314537&lt;/a>
surprising...but true o.O</p>

9

<p>Looking at the Hopkins LSAC action report as a whole, I think JHU actually has a very poor law school placement record for a school of its caliber. Only 28 of 60 JHU applicants were admitted to American, and 12 of 25 to Catholic (both run-of-the-mill DC area law schools). Less than 1/3 of its applicants were admitted to U of Maryland, for crying out loud! </p>

<p>An "elite" school with an average entering SAT hovering around 1400 should fare quite a bit better. And I would suggest that Hopkins' grade deflation, relative to other comparable institutions, has at least something to do with it.</p>

10

<p>the mean gpa admittees r lower than the means admittes for most of those prof schools, and you cannot look at it the way you r currently looking at it. Although only 1/3 of applicants were admitted to u of maryland (not quite sure...but a ranked 40-44 law school...atleast a ranking of that caliber for med school is considered pretty prestigious lol), the other 2/3 makes up one of the lowest ends of the applicant pool as a whole. You are looking at specific students applying to specific individual schools. Therefore it is impossible to claim it has poor law school placement when the bottom end of its applicant pool gets rejected 2/3 of the time from a ranked 40 something school. Also...not quite sure if hopkins actually has the grade deflation you speak of ...but ok lol =D</p>

<p>edit:if a ranked 40 something law school is considered a ttt school...so sorry...i had no idea...not quite into law...but just wanted to share the info hehe =D</p>

<p>edit: also, it should be noted that each undergrad yr level is approx only 1k+, considering that most of the students there are premed...looking at the pure matriculants for specific top tier law schools...it's still pretty shocking lol</p>

11

<p>but being honest, i think many schools that r in the top 30 do better in terms of results =D cheer georgetown!
yes, and srry for the misinfo...jhu probalby does have overall grade deflation =D</p>

12

<p>Honestly, having been through the law school admissions process not so long ago myself, I WISH I could recommend the more "hard core" schools like Chicago, JHU, or MIT. I think a school like Chicago, with its core program and emphasis on critical thinking, would provide outstanding preparation for performing well in law school itself. Unfortunately, that is a minor consideration in getting into your law school of choice.</p>

<p>Law school admissions can be likened to a beauty contest, and a very superficial one at that (a wet t-shirt contest?). Much more than other professional and grad programs, law admissions is a numbers-driven process. There are no coursework prerequisites and, with the exception of Northwestern, the process does not involve interviews. Unless they are spectacular, your extracurriculars are really of peripheral consideration, and a prospective law student is judged almost solely by GPA & LSAT. Part of this has to do with being rankings driven - even the largest law schools only have entering classes of about 500, and there is very little room to "hide" more than a few applicants with lower GPAs or test scores, no matter how stellar their undergrad institution.</p>

<p>I hope that didn't sound negative, but I am just trying to give you a realistic perspective here. Obviously students can, and do gain admission to top law schools from very difficult, grade-deflated schools and programs. But overall it is a much tougher hill to climb, and why put yourself through this torture (and possibly eliminate yourself from the race altogether) if you don't have to? Maximize your odds by going to a school you enjoy and can afford, and by picking a major in which you are interested, but won't entirely destroy your GPA. And then kill the LSAT. There really isn't any placement or advising to the law school admissions process.</p>

<p>Anyway, sorry to turn this into somewhat of a side tangent. But hopefully it was somewhat informative for the OP.</p>

13

<p>Actually JHU does not do that well at all. Their list looks good until you compare admissions ratings to the other top schools and the Ivies (all of which have 4-10X times the number of grads at the top schools compared to JHU). </p>

<p>Art is right, top Usnews ranking + grade inflation equals good placement into top law schools.</p>

14

<p>I agree. I wasn't amazed when I saw the JHU law placement thread.</p>

15

<p>Some lower-tiered schools are also worth considering if you think you might want to go to law school at Columbia; Occidental College and Knox College have programs where you go three years there and then move on to Columbia (Knox's program also allows you to go to the U. of Chicago Law School)</p>

16

<p>More Cowbell, could you explain how the knox and Occidental college programs work? 3 years for an undergrad degree and then automatic acceptance to Columbia or UChicago's law schools?</p>

17

<p>It's not automatic. Here's the info on those two schools' websites
<a href="http://www.knox.edu/prelaw.xml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.knox.edu/prelaw.xml&lt;/a>
<a href="http://departments.oxy.edu/politics/the%20major.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://departments.oxy.edu/politics/the%20major.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>also by googling "early admission to law school" I found a few more
<a href="http://www.sts.rpi.edu/Ugrad/4_accelerated.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.sts.rpi.edu/Ugrad/4_accelerated.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://trumantoday.truman.edu/000314.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://trumantoday.truman.edu/000314.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.ecu.edu/cs-acad/ugcat/PreProfessional.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ecu.edu/cs-acad/ugcat/PreProfessional.cfm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www2.una.edu/tcollins/prelaw.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www2.una.edu/tcollins/prelaw.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I'm sure it wouldn't be for everyone, cutting short their four years of college. But it seems to me that some of these schools, at least, probably have pretty good pre-law programs if they're offering early admission.</p>

18

<p>More Cowbell, thanks a lot for the information. I've called Knox, and I'm not sure that this kind of program is for me, but thanks very much for looking into this.</p>

19

<p>No worries... I had already looked into it so I had the Knox and Occidental information at hand!</p>