<p>Son took two SAT 2s - Math 2 and US History. When he told his AP US History teacher about his score, she said she'd never heard of the SAT Subject Test. I think the Subject Tests might have been available when I applied for college, but I don't remember ever hearing about them. I wonder when they became a requirement for admissions to the elite colleges?</p>
<p>They were an expected element for applications to certain colleges back when you and I were in high school, under the name of "SAT Achievement Tests." I heard of them in high school, but don't know anyone in my town in my generation for sure who took them.</p>
<p>The SAT IIs were call Achievement Tests when I took them back in the mid-70's, so they've been around for a while.
My son took the U.S. History SATII at the end of that course last year, and now, as a junior, he will be taking Math II and English Literature. We chose the Literature as a third test after he took some sample tests and did well. It is different from the other tests in that it requires less knowlege, but calls on analytical abilities more. It's worth looking at for kids who do well in English, and have some experience analyzing literature, especially poetry.</p>
<p>Fortunately, our AP U.S. History teacher is well aware of the SAT II -- he has three kids and they took them. He always recommends taking the U.S. History just prior to the AP test, as kids are in "testing mode." It's a good warmup to the AP test, which is a week later. Our chemistry teacher has the SAT II book for his subject and offers it to kids. One student, a few years ago, did so well on that test that it helped him place in a higher class at his college.</p>
<p>I don't know how long they've been around but the SAT2s (then called Achievement tests) were required when I applied to Ivy league colleges in 1973.</p>
<p>It's worth noting here (as has been said many times before) that, unlike some SAT II/AP pairings, the U.S. History SAT II and AP have a high, high degree of correlation. My son took both on consecutive days a few years ago, and he thought that well over half of the SAT II consisted of versions (with minor variations) of the very same questions that had been used on the AP.</p>
<p>SAT Achievement Tests: Like mathmom, I applied to Ivy League colleges in 1973, and SAT Achievement Tests were definitely required (and weren't a new thing, either). I took one in 1972, pretty much as a matter of course. I don't remember people stressing over them to the same extent as regular SATs, though. What was very rare back then, though, was taking AP exams before applying to college. I took the Spanish AP in 10th grade, because I was living in Spain then, and I didn't think my Spanish was going to improve after I returned to the States. But that was way out of the ordinary. No one else took APs until the spring of our senior year.</p>
<p>older D took sat ll biology and possibly lit? ( both- once in spring of junior year)
no APs
younger D didn't take any sat lls did take APs</p>
<p>D's took them in the scenario described in your OP Bio and US in May except it was in Jr, Not Soph year. The only schools they are applying to that require them are the UCs and they require just two.</p>
<p>I am thoroughly confused about the difference between SAT IIs and AP tests. :( Sent a note to D's counselor about whether/what to take, but haven't heard back yet.</p>
<p>Brief primer: AP tests are Advanced Placement tests, usually taken after a student takes an AP course, which is supposed to be a college-level course in that subject. Many colleges will give credit, or at least higher course placement, based on the scores achieved on these tests. They are generally not required, and may not even be considered, for college admission (although some colleges will ask for them). They are scored from 1 to 5.
The SAT Subject Tests (also known as SAT IIs, or Achievement Tests) are standardized tests of achievement in particular subjects. Their primary purpose is for college admissions. While many colleges do not require them, some require two, and a few require three. In some cases, colleges want specific ones (i.e., they may want Math II for an engineering program). These need to be taken in time for college applications, but again, most students take them at the conclusion of the relevant course. They are scored on an 800 scale.</p>
<p>Like JHS I only took APs spring of senior year (1973) and was under the impression they were fairly new to our school then. We didn't offer that many. I took European History, English (not an AP course, we just took the exam), Art and Calculus BC. Some friends took AP Bio, and we also offered AP Spanish. I think that was it.</p>
<p>Lunitari, it's really not that confusing. SAT2s (scored like SAT1s on an 800 scale) are designed to test whether your child has been exposed to a high school level curriculum, (remember that the average score is around 500), and APs (scored on a 1-5 scale) are designed to see if you have been exposed to a college level curriculum. Except for the language SAT2s, it's rare to get credit for SAT2s. Colleges set the bar for granting credit for APs at different levels. Some at 3 (out of 5), others at 4 or 5. SAT2's are scheduled throughout the year at the same time as SAT1s. The AP's can only be taken in May on the particular day each one is offered. If your daughter is taking AP courses she should be signed up to take the AP in May. For the SAT2s, it's really your choice. Some kids choose not to take them and just don't apply to colleges that require them. For kids who will probably be applying to the top colleges, I'd recommend taking them so that you don't close off options. For a sciency kid - most take a science, a math (prob. Math2) and one other. As mentioned before in this thread if you take AP History, it's highly recommended to take the SAT2 in May or June as well, because you won't have to study at all. You'll be preprared from the AP.</p>
<p>I took SAT achievement tests in 3 areas back in the mid-60's. For awhile they were called SAT IIs, and now they are called SAT Subject Tests. Your child should definitely check the websites for the schools he is interested in applying to for information on how many and what kinds of tests are required. Some schools have quite specific requirements for SAT Subject Tests for admission, although most schools don't require them at all. Some schools use results for college placement, especially in foreign languages.</p>
<p>My S had to take at least 3 SAT subject tests for several of the schools to which he applied. He took 3 in his strongest subjects at one sitting, and said that was tough. The test date was in June after his junior year and the school room was boiling hot. The 4th, and hardest for him, he took in the fall of his senior year in time for sending results to the schools that required it.</p>
<p>He got into his top choice school, and I think that the high scores he received in his 3 best subjects were very helpful. The 4th, in which he didn't do as well, didn't seem to hurt.</p>
<p>Do you want the parent or the student strategy? It is best to take subject tests close to the finish of the subject. Son insisted the fall review of math in calculus was good enough (he didn't take it in spring like I thought he would)- he was wrong, we told him to retake it, he ended up signing up for the SAT I and getting a 2400...still stuck with his original SAT math II high (but could have been better) score. He had taken the ACT and SAT through GT paths in middle school. His HS prep, at my insistence, consisted of doing the practice tests before the real test. We also are in ACT territory so the district offers a test prep Saturday session one can sign up for (and pay a small fee), son didn't bother as he had taken the test before- many in our school district are first time college attendees. My opinion is that expensive outside test prep courses to inflate your test score shouldn't be taken- but I don't make the decisions. Your work in school can prepare you well for the tests, like for any exam in school one should study for the SAT II tests. BTW, grades also matter, and one has to do the work, not just learn the material, to get A's in our district... That is all ancient history for us as son is halfway through college now. At least now I know son will do what he chooses, regardless of any wisdom I try to impart.</p>
<p>AP tests in the 70's? Not in our area. Take the ACT once and done, except for those of us who took and did well on the PSAT and needed The SAT tests for NMS. How times change.</p>
<p>D took SAT II - Bio E at the end of freshman year. She scored a 710.</p>
<p>She will take the SAT II - Math I and the SAT II - Eng. Lit this weekend (end of junior year).</p>
<p>She has debated adding the USH also as she just finished APUSH. However, she's currently leaning toward not taking it, as she's just really ambivalent about history as a subject.</p>
<p>She quite probably will add either French or French w/ listening or both in the fall (senior year). She is waiting until senior year as she plans to continue taking French.</p>
<p>She has looked to see what SATs are required by the colleges in which she is interested. Most don't require SAT IIs at all (ex. Notre Dame). Rice requires two SAT IIs - preferably in the area in which you want a degree. (Another reason d leans toward not taking the USH SAT; she has absolutely no interest in a history-related degree.) No SAT IIs are offered in her intended major, so she chose the generic math and lit. The bio SAT II - well, been there and done that. French SAT II (maaybeee senior year) - just because she likes French and usually tests well; she just received a medal for placing in the national French contest - 7th locally and 8th nationally.</p>
<p>BTW: Older d took 6 from Soph thru beginning of senior year; s took three at the end of junior year, one of which was Chem - which he took two more times senior year (final score - a disappointing, for him - 660).</p>
<p>'If a student is taking the AP test, why would they need the SATII?'</p>
<p>Because some colleges require SAT Subject Tests (the current name for SAT IIs) and don't accept AP tests as an alternative.</p>
<p>^^What Marian said, plus College Board gets your $$ for both SAT-IIs and APs. ;)</p>
<p>Students should check what tests their prospective schools want; Cornell had a chart based on which school to which a student was applying. UMD and UChicago said SAT-IIs were optional. Harvard wanted three. Some schools will not accept Math Level I (and I believe this applied to the UCs as well).</p>
<p>S1 took Math II and World History immediately after the corresponiding course and self-studied for Physics early senior year.</p>
<p>S2 took USH immediately after the course, is taking Math II on Saturday (the day after his pre-Calc final) and will probably take Bio at some point self-study. (We didn't know 'til it was too late that his pre-IB Bio class offered superb prep for the SAT-II.)</p>
<p>As far as actual preparations, we bought a couple of test books so kids could familiarize themselves with the format of the exam. How much studying for content depended on the kid, but was generally not a lot.</p>
<p>
[quote]
UMD and UChicago said SAT-IIs were optional.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, I think you know more about getting a kid into Chicago than I, but I'll pass on that tonight I was at the Exploring Educational Excellence joint program, and someone asked Ruth Martin of the U of Chicago if Chicago requires SAT II scores. She replied, "We don't require them, and we don't even look at them." Chicago appears to attach no weight whatever to SAT Subject Test scores, although it surely receives them from some applicants.</p>
<p>To get beyond the individual examples a bit, perhaps an overall SAT Subject Test strategy would include the following:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Early in the student's high school career, make an effort to find out which SAT Subject Tests students at that particular high school do well on. The curriculum for various courses at your child's school may or may not be a good match for the material tested on the corresponding SAT Subject Test. If it isn't, it may be better for the student to take a different test to avoid the need to self-study.</p></li>
<li><p>Try to figure out early whether the student is likely to want to major in science or engineering. The most restrictive SAT Subject Test requirements apply to students contemplating those majors. (Look at some Web sites of specific colleges, and you'll see what I mean.)</p></li>
<li><p>Try to figure out early whether the student is likely to want to apply to one of the very small number of colleges that require three tests. If not, two is plenty.</p></li>
<li><p>Plan 10th and 11th grade course schedules with all of the above in mind. Students can't take SAT Subject Tests on the basis of 12th grade courses, so it's important to schedule courses that lead to SAT Subject Tests earlier.</p></li>
<li><p>Make sure that the student takes the tests at the time when he or she is best prepared. For Math Level 2, this means at the end of precalculus. For foreign languages, this means after as much preparation as possible. For sciences and history, it means at the end of the year when the student takes the relevant course. </p></li>
<li><p>U.S. History is a special case. The SAT Subject Test for U.S. History is phenomenally similar to the multiple choice portion of the AP U.S. History test. Students who take AP U.S. History in 10th or 11th grade and who do well in the course may want to take the SAT Subject Test in U.S. History at the end of the year even if history is not one of their major interests because they are likely to earn scores that they will be pleased with.</p></li>
<li><p>Last (and perhaps least), all of the above planning may turn out to be unnecessary if your student decides, during the summer before 12th grade, not to apply to any colleges that require SAT Subject Tests. But waiting until that point to think about the Subject Tests would be a very bad idea.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>^^Marian just gave great strategic pointers for students from competitive high schools. But not every reader attends one of those, so:</p>
<p>I want to say this clearly to outliers: IF your student attends a mediocre or poor h.s. that does not offer AP's, where educational demographics work against learning in the classrooms, where you worry that even their "honors" classes won't prepare them well for top LAC's or Ivies...but you think they're smart anyway, might score well on SAT-I's, might want to try for some top schools..</p>
<p>then TAKE SAT-II's, following serious self-study. That's where you can shine.</p>
<p>It's your chance to demonstrate that you are head-and-shoulders above your school environment.</p>
<p>Otherwise, you're only leaving a college admission officer with 2 groups of data: high SAT-I's (proves you're smart and can reason well; has potential) and a great report card from a bad school (which demonstrates..not much. After all it's easy to get A's there, right?). </p>
<p>By taking SAT-II's, an ambitious student from a poor h.s. can DEMONSTRATE skill in course material in a way that s/he can be compared with someone from a better high school. It's a national, standardized test. Your 720 score (let's say) is exactly equal to the 720 scored by a kid from an upscale h.s. </p>
<p>Don't bother to ask for guidance at your h.s., just decide your strong subjects, sign up, plan to self-study like crazy. This is a chance to rise above and go beyond the limits of your environment. </p>
<p>You can't control that your h.s. doesn't offer AP's, has sluggish teachers, or a disinterested student body. You CAN control this element of your college admissions. You don't need anyone's permission...just do it.</p>
<p>Check, college by college on their websites, whether they'll take "any 2" or specify that one must be math/science. Then take 3, so you can choose for schools that require the mathy one (including it). If they say only "any 2" you'd send in your best 2 scores from your menu of 3. You can take up to 3 in a morning, so you could take even more than 3 subjects, just on different days. And yes, it's hard to take 3 in one day, but each subject test only lasts an hour, one after the other with a mini-break between. So, some prefer to just take 2 in a test-day, but 3 can be done if you can study weeks/months in advance with a time management plan (you can't cram 3!)</p>