<p>Marite, I missed the IR comment. If that is important to the student, it’s Brown, absolutely. Brown put IR on the map.</p>
<p>You know, it occurs to me that there are lots of other differences between these two schools besides the big, glaring ones of location, Ivy status, LAC vs. research university. There are also these: very liberal student body vs. middle-of-the-road to conservative student body; completely open curriculum vs. a set of requirements; the experience of urban living vs. a more relaxed bubble with access to urban amusements. Has your child thought about the overall environment she prefers?</p>
<p>I think it’s important to understand what the student bodies will be like in these two schools. At Brown, essentially all the students will be like the very top students in your daughter’s high school–they will be very smart, interested in academic subjects, and accomplished in one or more extracurriculars. At St. Olaf, there will be students like that, but there will be a wider range of academic abilities and interests. It will be more like, say, an AP or honors class in your daughter’s high school. If she’s ever been to a summer program with highly able students, then she might have some idea of the difference. For me, this would make Brown the clear favorite, but not everybody wants that kind of setting.</p>
<p>Interesting thread as the schools are quite different, offers a lot to consider.
I don’t really know much about St. Olaf, so I’ve looked it up. Half the number of students as at Brown, though relatively large for an LAC. I’m not one to go overboard looking at the statistics of the students–you’ll usually find me arguing for a wider view of a student’s capablities than just the numbers–but take a look at St. Olaf’s compared to Brown. The percentage of students in the top 10% of their hs class and scoring in the 700-800 SAT zone is very different. St. Olaf’s accepts more than 50% of their applicants. It strikes me, if I can suggest this without saying anything derogatory about a school I am not familiar with, that we may be considering different sets of high school students here.
And what does that mean for your daughter? I think enough that it has to be thought about, not in a snobby or pretentious way, but in a careful consideration of who will be her classmates.<br>
One more point for your daughter to think about: I am a graduate of one of the top LACs. They offer a great education and can be very comfortable in the first couple of years, but they can feel very small after awhile. Especially in a rural location. Some people just thrive on this, but others get increasingly ready to move on as the four years pass.
Good luck with the decision!</p>
<p>One more quick statistic, for what its worth: white students as percentage of student body at St.Olaf, 84% in the chart I just found, 48% at Brown. These are different environments to be educated in.</p>
<p>One more factor to think about: St. Olaf is a Lutheran school and, according to what is said here on CC from time to time (I don’t know this firsthand), is fairly religious, probably significantly more religious than Brown. So that can be either a plus or a minus depending on the student and what she is looking for.</p>
<p>St. Olaf is quite conservative. I am quite familiar with it, before anyone starts blasting me. I do not have an east coast bias (my bias is towards the south 
). I think Brown is the better choice for this student. St. Olaf is good in some aspects of music-particularly choral- not all. It is a very white-bread school. That works for many. My daughter spent some time in the town (weeks) and on campus and felt that she would have wanted to escape well before the end of 4 years.</p>
<p>Greetings!</p>
<p>I am usually one to make a strong case for financial fit, and aiming for low-or-no debt over fancy-name schools. But if there’s any way that you can make this work without feeling that you and your D have to delay retirement until you’re in your 80’s, I’d say go with Brown. Let us know what she decides. Good luck!</p>
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<p>And Brown is the most liberal of the Ivies. Quite a range, I’d say.</p>
<p>Yes, D brings up the possibility of IR as a second major with some regularity.
Right now D’s career interest is a little unusual-- working for government as a mathematician or analyst.
Music would be extra-curricular. But access and quality mean something.
The religious aspect of St. Olaf is not a deterrent. It isn’t very pronounced. Lutherans (ELCA) in general are open-minded. Besides, we’re Lutheran. (Back to the familiar, comfortable thing.)
In talking to my daughter I’ve made the same point as Hunt in post 83 (top students vs. honors students).</p>
<p>She plans to make her decision today! Thanks again to everyone.</p>
<p>As a Minnesotan, it’s hard for me to imagine why a student would have applied to both schools–unless St Olaf was a safety due to legacy and Brown was a reach. Otherwise, the only connecting thread appears to be strength in math (though, showing my Midwestern bias, I never would have thought of Brown as the ivy for strength in math). Having visited Brown with D1 and St Olaf with D2, I agree strongly with dbwes that factors other than academics are what really separate these schools: </p>
<pre><code> "You know, it occurs to me that there are lots of other differences between these two schools besides the big, glaring ones of location, Ivy status, LAC vs. research university. There are also these: very liberal student body vs. middle-of-the-road to conservative student body; completely open curriculum vs. a set of requirements; the experience of urban living vs. a more relaxed bubble with access to urban amusements. Has your child thought about the overall environment she prefers? "
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<p>St Olaf is quite good for science, math, music and pre-med, but there is less breadth and depth in other curricular options. The school was the most conservative of the Midwest LAC’s that D2 visited and, in fact, she never chose to apply. 2 religion classes (1 is the same Bible class for all students and 1 is a Christianity-based elective) are required of all students at St Olaf. D2 might have been OK with a religion requirement if it were just 1 religion class and if she could learn about a different religion such as Buddhism or Islam. In contrast to Brown, I think there was a list of about 13 gen ed requirements at St Olaf. Brown has an open curriculum and the tour guide we had there was very much like our tour guide at Carleton. </p>
<p>The kids from my daughters’ school who attend St Olaf are all very nice church-going white girls with above-average grades and extensive interest and involvement in music. My kids preferred more diversity and a different experience than high school.</p>
<p>I really like St. Olaf and Northfield is unique! Both of my Ds were baptised there and we have many family members who have attended and worked there. One of my Ds applied, was accepted but didn’t attend, the other thought it was too small so didn’t apply. (That’s my background/bias.) If your D is looking for a supportive, close-knit community with smart, talented, conservative, friendly Lutherans who love Sven and Ole jokes, lutefisk, hot dishes and a good time at the Rube, St. Olaf is the place! 
We pride ourselves on being “Minnesota friendly”. (Lake Wobegone anyone???) :)</p>
<p>All joking aside, how wonderful to have such great choices! Each school has a different vibe. Go with a “gut” feel, you can’t go wrong with either choice.</p>
<p>You might also find better study abroad options, and better language instruction, at St. Olaf.</p>
<p>I’m very biased towards Brown. Having said that…</p>
<p>I took a look at the websites for both schools. I looked at the math department page and googled the websites to find out what recent grads are doing. I looked at course offerings. I didn’t do this for music, but obviously the OP could. I’m no expert, but both the course offerings and career paths of recent grads were very, very different. (Interestingly, after mini’s remarks, I didn’t see a single “profile” of a recent grad or list of plans of the class of 2007 math majors at St. Olaf’s going on for a Ph.D. in math. There was one in chemistry and a couple of med students, but I didn’t see a single person listed as going on to get a Ph.D. in math. I assume that if one had gone on to some top Ph.D. program, the math department would have chosen that person as one of the young alums profiled on its home page.) </p>
<p>One thing that struck me was the "drop out’ rate. Now, I understand in the general scheme of things, St. Olaf’s isn’t bad. Still…over 100 of each entering class fail to graduate within 6 years. If it were my kid, I’d be trying to find out who those 100 are. Are they true drop outs ? Or are there a lot of kids who transfer to other colleges, and , if so, why do they transfer? </p>
<p>Now, while I’m biased in favor of Brown, that doesn’t mean that I think everyone would choose Brown after looking at the websites. It does mean though that I think that it would be advisable to look at the course offerings and career paths of recent grads with majors/concentrations in math to make the decision. </p>
<p>Of course, like everyone else, I’d warn you that it’s probable she’ll change her major. So, don’t overemphasize math in making the decision. Still, if she hasn’t done it, I think it would be a worthwhile exercise.</p>
<p>I don’t know much about St. Olaf’s, but Brown has excellent study abroad options, so while it’s certainly possible St. Olaf’s are just as good, I think it’s unlikely that they are better.</p>
<p>The last baccalaureate orign study for math Ph.Ds ranked St. Olaf’s 7th (none of the Ivies, as I remember, made the top 10.)</p>
<p>I would still favor Brown, if money wasn’t an issue. But it is, and the family has to figure that out for themselves.</p>
<p>I also think it’s probable that she’ll change her career goal of working for the government.</p>
<p>it’s “St. Olaf” not “St. Olaf’s”</p>
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<p>Yes, a lot of the “information” about St. Olaf in this thread isn’t even getting the name of the college right. I am descended from two alumni of St. Olaf College and visit Northfield at least annually. I like St. Olaf a lot, and am recommending that a local friend send her son there, based on where else he was admitted. But for the OP, I would say go with Brown. I was just talking to a Brown admission officer last evening at the Minnesota session of the Exploring Educational Excellence joint road show, and it’s plain enough that Brown offers more relevant opportunities to the OP’s daughter than does St. Olaf, even though St. Olaf is an exceptionally good LAC for the interests of the OP’s daughter.</p>
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<p>Boy, the defensiveness. Has anyone said that Midwesterners are unkind, etc…?
I happen to have lived in the Midwest for 18 months and indeed, the people I encountered there were far friendlier than those I have lived among for the last thirty years or so. But what has that to do with the Midwest not being quite so accessible for guest speakers? if a student is interested in IR, being in a town 45 minutes from an airport is not going to be the same as being in a place 10 minutes from an airport along the Northeast corridor with hourly flights to places like DC or NYC. No amount of kindness is going to change basic geography.</p>
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<p>Sorry, marite, I think you’re just completely wrong. The Minneapolis-St. Paul airport is a major hub for a major carrier (Northwest, now part of Delta) with multiple daily non-stop flights to every major market in the country, and far less congested than Chicago O’Hare. Pretty much any major airport in the East Coast is within a 2-hour non-stop flight from here. Pretty much any major airport on the West Coast is within a non-stop 3-hour flight from here. The Twin Cities (and by extension Northfield) are actually much easier to get to from most places than is Providence. </p>
<p>As an academic who does a lot of traveling himself, at a school that frequently brings in guest speakers, workshop presenters, conference participants, faculty appointments candidates, etc—and as someone who has also taught at schools on the East Coast and the West Coast—I have to say one of the principal comparative advantages of the the Twin Cities is that it’s one of the easiest places to get to from almost anywhere in the country. Speakers from DC, New York, Boston, and other major East Coast markets can and frequently do take morning flights in (taking advantage of a favorable 1-hour time change on the way here), arrive in plenty of time for a mid-day or afternoon lecture or workshop, and fly home the same evening. Places like Ithaca, New Haven and yes, Providence have far more limited air service; even if there is non-stop service from a particular market, the number of flights is typically more limited, and even if you get lucky and find convenient flight times, it’s basically going to take you a full day to do that same in-and-out trip anyway. Many smaller Northeastern LACs are really out of the loop for this sort of thing, as getting there is typically an arduous all-day journey in each direction. </p>
<p>And not every desirable speaker is coming from the East Coast. From major Midwestern markets, and even most smaller ones, getting to the Twin Cities is a piece of cake. For anyone coming from the West Coast, it’s no contest; Mpls-St. Paul is an easy half-day trip in either direction, whereas the East Coast is a full day trip with a jet-lage-producing 3-hour time change, and places with limited air service like Providence often require a change of planes along the way, further adding to the arduousness of the journey. So basically you’re talking about a 3-day trip (a day in either direction with a day to recover and speak sandwiched in between the two travel days) for someone coming from California to Brown, versus a less grueling 2-day trip coming to Minnesota. </p>
<p>People make these trips anyway. I’m not saying Brown has any difficulty getting the speakers it wants. But I think you’re vastly overestimating how difficult it would be for a school like St. Olaf to bring in outside speakers. I don’t know whether they do or not; but if not, it certainly wouldn’t be because of the difficulty of getting there, which is way on the low end compared to most of the country. </p>
<p>This is not universally true of Midwestern cities, of course. Places like Madison, Iowa City, Omaha-Lincoln are not served by major hub airports and can be a little difficult to reach; but no more so than schools in upstate New York or New England outside of Boston. The Twin Cities, Detroit-Ann Arbor, and Chicago are major airline hubs, consequently much easier to reach, though O’Hare’s chronic congestion problems are widely known and a lot of academics I know prefer to avoid that airport if possible.</p>