<p>(I don't feel very anonymous with this thread title, but I didn't want to be coy.)</p>
<p>Her father and I have advocated St. Olaf, but have backed off. I don't want to turn this into a how-do-I-convince-her-to-go-to-St. Olaf thread. She liked St. Olaf when she visited. It is strong in the field she is most interested in at this time (math). At St. Olaf she will have a real opportunity to participate in a quality orchestra. St. Olaf would be a very comfortable place. Alas, that is probably its biggest drawback. She is ready to expand her comfort zone.</p>
<p>A lot of our advocacy has had to do with cost. She will get significant merit aid at St. Olaf. She knows what we will pay and what her share is if she goes to Brown. </p>
<p>What does she like about Brown? I think the first thing she would say is the open curriculum (add IR to math or physics major?). The opportunity to be around really smart people. Stretching her wings. And she might believe there will be more or better graduate opportunities after Brown than there would be after St. Olaf.</p>
<p>If there is any way to swing it financially, to me there is no real decision here. It has to be Brown (and I think highly of St. Olaf). The schools are SO different, but it sounds like your daughter is ready to spread her wings.</p>
<p>I would agree schools are very different
Now if the choice was between Carleton and Brown- that would be different and a more difficult decision.
A friend attended St Olaf & was well aware of the size of town/harsh winters etc, however- she only lasted a year & high tailed it out of there after saving up enough money by waitressing to make it to Paris where she was an au pair before settling down and finishing her degree at the Univ of Wa.</p>
<p>If your daughter changes her major ( or even if she doesn’t) I believe her opportunities and support will be broader at Brown & I think given that she feels ready for Brown- staying in the smaller environment of Northfield- will feel like she may have well stayed in high school.</p>
<p>How much debt would she (not you) carry after four years at Brown (assuming a 5% increase in costs each year)?</p>
<p>(As much as I think Brown is wonderful, and clearly a better school than St. Olaf, I think the stats would show her chances at graduate school IN MATH are actually better from St. Olaf. But really the debt issue is the big one.)</p>
<p>I don’t know how potentially crippling your D’s debt might have to be to swing Brown, but she needs to exhaust all the available possibilities to try to make it happen. Like MoWC I’m a fan of St. Olaf. But this isn’t about choosing a great college instead of a nice one, or being arount a smart crowd, or even being exposed to outstanding faculty. It’s about finding your sense of belonging - your “tribe” as one CC poster called it - among world-class peers who have no doubts of their capacities to impact the world and no limits on the heights to which they feel empowered to aspire. I’ve watched my two Ds go through this experience at a top college, and it’s incredibly transformative. Her classmates at Brown will challenge and inspire her and she’ll learn how to aim high and not be deterred by self-doubts. At St. Olaf, she’ll get a fine education. But Brown would be much more than that, and it’s an opportunity that’s only going to come her way once.</p>
<p>Have a set amount you’re willing to pay for school and have her take out the rest in loans. I would go to Brown, partly because I have never heard of St. Olaf despite my perusing these boards for a while.</p>
<p>mini-- I anticipate her debt would be $35k- $57k. This assumes that she makes enough for books and toothpaste during the summers. It doesn’t include anything for study abroad. The low figure assumes some financial aid when her sister starts school in two years.</p>
<p>Assuming the 5% increase/year was painful. We’ve been using a rough figure of $200,000 for 4 years, but that won’t be enough.</p>
<p>Stretching her wings now may clip them when she graduates. It would be so much more fun to put the student loan payments into a travel fund. It might even be fun to invest the money.</p>
<p>Study abroad will cost no more than the term or Year at Brown. How does your DD feel about the debt? If she works 2 jobs summers could it be less?</p>
<p>hmom5-- I almost hate to say it, but part of the advocacy was that the comfort level makes it a safe choice. Brown is a little riskier. And I disputed the notion that choosing Brown necessarily leads to more opportunities after graduation. (But I’ve never thought collegeis all about what happens when you graduate.)</p>
<p>So now go to [FinAid</a>! Financial Aid, College Scholarships and Student Loans](<a href=“http://www.finaid.org%5DFinAid”>http://www.finaid.org) and find the loan calculator. Plug in the amount, and an interest rate of between 8.2% and 11%, 1% origination fee. See what it amounts to for the next 10 years. Then print it out (or several possibilities), give it to your d. and see whether this is something she’d be willing to bear. </p>
<p>(My rule of thumb for my kids was $20k, or at most $30k if and only if they were sure to be going into a high-paying profession. But others might feel differently. This is something you and she need to figure out for your family. I too am a fan of Brown, though math and music are the very best departments at St. Olaf, and in both cases I believe better than Brown’s. But if she is really ready to expand her comfort zone, Brown is a great place to do it. The question is whether you - and she - are really prepared to make it work.)</p>
<p>For the last two years, Brown has kept its increases below 5% – 3.9 and 2.9 percent. I don’t know how long Brown will keep doing that – and I realize the difference doesn’t amount to that much – but it is possible the 5% per year estimate is off.</p>
<p>It’s probably safe to assume that the amount of aid will increase when her sister goes to college, although what’s not known is how much her sister will get in aid.</p>
<p>mom58, from your past posts it seems like you have wanted St. Olaf for a long time. It sounds like your DD must really want Brown and to spread her wings if she’s pushing back despite your strong feelings. Is it you that fears how safe this choice is or your DD?</p>
<p>I realize it is hard to see your child long for worlds beyond the ones that you have been satisfied with.
Believe me- my 18 year old youngest daughter has been in India for two months and won’t be coming home till the middle of June!
But I have tried to raise her to see that she always has choices and to be prepared to make decisions.
She has worked hard to prepare herself for her goal of travel, just as your daughter has worked hard to prepare herself for her further education.
The greatest gift you could give her, is the gift of confidence that she will rise to the occasion and that you trust that she knows herself well enough to make important decisions.</p>
<p>A few weeks ago, a father told me that when he became a parent, his father reminded him that parents must give their children two things: roots and wings. Give them roots to keep them grounded through tough times. Give them wings to soar above everything, explore new worlds and fly farther than we ever did.</p>
<p>I think it’s too much debt. Brown might permit her to spread her wings but there would be a mighty heavy anchor attached. St. Olaf isn’t Podunk U. Is she refusing to go and determined on Brown? </p>
<p>I know several kids turning down their top name schools this spring because of money. There are practical realities in life.</p>
<p>That nicely expresses the dream that Ivy League schools encourage. The reality - and it’s not a bad reality - is that the majority of Ivy graduates do not grow up to become household names, amass great fortunes, or invent drugs to save millions of lives. More typically, they become pretty good attorneys, doctors, journalists, or teachers. They drink better wine than others do. They marry more attractive spouses, raise slightly more beautiful children, and live in nice suburbs like Evanston or Bethesda. They publish books and start up modestly successful small companies. A Brown graduate can realistically hope, by the 15th reunion or so, to become a tenured professor at a nice little midwestern college. St. Olaf, maybe.</p>
<p>In other words, you are being offered a ticket to a pleasant upper middle class lifestyle. The price of admission is a debt load roughly equivalent to the cost of a new Volvo. That’s my personal rule of thumb about college debt: don’t borrow more than the price of a new car. If it’s a Honda college, don’t borrow more than the price of a Honda. If it’s a Volvo college, don’t borrow more than the price of a Volvo. If it’s a fully-equipped Lexus college (HYPS), you don’t borrow at all, you get the employer to pay for it (and you act really, really p*ssy if it comes to your driveway with a minor factory defect) .</p>
<p>Your choice is between a Honda college and a Volvo college. Which would you rather own and drive? Which would you rather have to pay for? I’d probably pick the Volvo. It’s a safe, comfortable car. The wagon is great for hauling lumber and young children too, as long as you remember to keep a messy mat handy. But your mileage may vary. If they were giving away the Honda, hmm, that’d be tough.</p>
<p>I have nothing against St. Olaf. I happen to like small midwestern LACs as a general statement. But . . . (do you see a pattern here?) Brown is one of the country’s great universities. </p>
<p>It’s not just “The opportunity to be around really smart people.” No question but that there are smart kids and professors at St. Olaf. The difference is that at Brown she will be exposed to people who have had a wider range of experiences and backgrounds – which will in turn push the envelope on her own intellectual growth.</p>
<p>What comes after college may not be the only objective of college but for sure, a Brown degree will open more doors more easily, all over the world. </p>
<p>If the only reason NOT to attend Brown is ~$50,000 over four years, then she should go to Brown. Or put another way, she may regret turning down Brown, my guess, even with $50+ in loans, she won’t regret attending.</p>