<p>Some of the posters here are clearly the parents of geniuses, based on their many posts about thier kids' abilities and grades at Vandy. My daughter is not a genius, just a smart person who has always gotten very high grades and very high standardized test scores at the best schools in Montgomery County, Maryland -- known for academic excellence and intense competition. That said, her experience at Vandy has been a shock. After As in AP Calculus and a 5 on the AP calculus exam, she barely managed a C in introductory calculus and promises she worked harder in that course than she had ever worked on anything in her life. Also had As in AP Economics and a 5 on the AP economics exam and again -- barely passed (at one point she had an F average in the course, w/ Prof. Buckles). Unless you are truly gifted intellectually -- I mean not just very intelligent, but a person who is among the most intellectually gifted in the country, As at Vanderbilt are going to be extremely difficult to earn -- or at least that is what I have concluded. Again, please do not judge by reports from cc parents -- it seems that most of them have truly unusual, truly extraordinary children.</p>
<p>^^^I just went back through this thread and I don't see a single post about anyone finding it easy to get high grades; quite the opposite. </p>
<p>My kid is academically quite strong, but he overestimated his ability to do a thousand other things AND take an overload of difficult courses. He is facing a very tough month. I suggest prospective students recognize that many Vanderbilt courses will test them, and that they use some common sense when deciding how much they can handle. My own kid will not take my advice, so I'm giving it out for free to strangers.</p>
<p>What is the typical course load at Vandy? Is it usually 4 courses per semester or 5? Also, when you talk about grade deflation and how tough it is to get A's and B's, is that across the board, or more specifically in pre-med, engineering and freshman weed-out classes? Are the grades just as hard to come by in the more liberal arts classes (history, pol sci) or HOD?</p>
<p>Thanks midmo, the Financial Engineering option is new, so that might make a difference towards me finalizing on Vanderbilt!</p>
<p>dianagirl,
I think students are often encouraged to start a little lighter the first semester and to take only 12-13 hours. Better to do well in a few things than have average or mediocre performance in many. First semester is an adjustment.</p>
<p>dianagirl: Across the board, it is difficult to receive A's at Vanderbilt. I would agree that some of the difficulty is the result of grade deflation, based on the strict bell curve for "weed-out" classes. However, I would argue that the grade deflation is actually based more on our professors' extremely high expectations for us.</p>
<p>With the possible exception of HYPS, all colleges have brutal curves in the intro sciences & engineering courses. But, does anyone know the median course grade in other Vandy classes? For example, Cornell is supposedly the 'easiest Ivy to get into, but most difficult to get out of', but yet it has a median grade of a ~3.2-3.3. Thus, over half of the kids are graduating Cornell with a B+ average, which is a school with a reputation for grade-deflation.</p>
<p>btw: for those that claim grad schools give credit for grade-deflated schools...sorry, but such adjustment is minimal. Suggest you ask the premed advising office: how many non-hooked kids were accepted to med school with a ~3.3 Vandy gpa? Or, were any non-hooked Vandy kids accepted to Yale law with a 3.5?</p>
<p>As a recent Vandy grad (A&S) who is now at HYS law, I may be able to speak to some of these concerns:
1. Certain courses are, of course, more difficult than others. My good friend and roommate for 2 years was a pre-med/bio-sci major with a high 3.8, so it’s definitely doable.
2. Most people take 15 hours/semester in A&S I’d say except for first semester freshman year. Things may have changed under AXLE (I was a freshman under CPLE, so I’m not sure about how that may affect credit hour distribution)
3. Unless you are a URM, you have little chance at a top law or med school with a 3.5, regardless of whether the school knows you UG deflates. Since I just went through the LS admissions process, I can tell you that most schools will opt for a higher GPA from a less prestigious school than the opposite. Not a rule, but definitely more common than not. See <a href="http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com%5B/url%5D">www.lawschoolnumbers.com</a>.
4. Vandy students have complained about grade deflation for years. In reality, the average GPA last fall was a 3.267 (see page 6/6 of: <a href="http://www.vanderbilt.edu/greek_life/stats/grade%20report%2007fall.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.vanderbilt.edu/greek_life/stats/grade%20report%2007fall.pdf</a>)
5. High grades in liberal arts classes (I know the History dept. best) are also tough. Certain professors are easier than others and as you ask around when course selection time comes around, make sure to schedule courses with professors that evaluate you with tests over papers for example, if you feel that you do better in those situations. Also, spend some time with the course evaluations from the VSG website and find professors who are highly rated for their teaching and that don’t drown students in work. Researching profs. on the front end will pay dividends.
Vandy is a great, well-rounded school and all of you admits should consider it seriously. I loved my 4 years there and miss it quite a bit. HTH, Feel free to ask me more questions.</p>
<p>WOW you guys are just slaughtering my dreams of going to graduate school... is the deflation so unreal? i mean seriously... I'm now considering not going with how bad you guys make it sound.</p>
<p>My S's first year experience was similar to mirimom's daughter...after sailing thru hs with great grades, during freshman year he seemed mystified at why, when he was working harder than ever, he wasn't getting top grades. I feel he had to learn what the expectations were; how much work was really required; how to balance that with his social life etc. I also feel that many of the early classes were "weed out classes" with difficult curves, requirements he needed to satisfy etc.--since soph. year, taking more courses that he's truly interested in, and having learned to manage the work load etc.--he's been back on track-</p>
<p>xaerial, graduate school admissions do not work on such a cut-and-dried gpa + test formula as medical school (and perhaps law school) admissions. Of course your grades are not irrelevant, but references from profs, research record, course choices are more important for graduate school.</p>
<p>Based on my d's experience, I'd say that the student not only needs to work hard, she needs to learn how to work hard in an atmosphere like Vanderbilt. One's fellow students are, at the least, very, very bright, and some are considerably more so - it's tough to be at the top of the class in an environment like that. Vanderbilt also offers a somewhat heightened version of the distractions every college freshman faces. And, as at most top schools, the faculty is exceptional and expects a mature level of study. Few high schools, no matter how many AP/IB courses they offer, can really prepare the student for this. </p>
<p>My d was the poster girl for hard work in hs, and her grades reflected it. I mean it - she was a lunatic. Though she earned good grades her first year at Vandy, she was shocked at how hard she was working not to get a 4.0. But she also participated in the social scene, joined lots of organizations, did a ton of service, and otherwise availed herself of the many opportunities at Vanderbilt. Her GPA went up a bit sophomore year, as she learned to balance study with other demands. This year, she's finally satisfied with her grades. She credits her on-campus job - she sits at a desk 8-12 hours per week and, because of her off-hours shift, she essentially has nothing to do but study while she's there. Added to her usual study time, this has done the trick.</p>
<p>This discussion reminded me of what the president of W & M said during my oldest d's freshman parent orientation. He said that there were very few kids who'd graduate with a 4.0 after four years (I think he said fewer than he had fingers, but I might be confused) - but that a student who graduated with a 4.0 at the expense of participating in a rich and varied campus life had made a foolish mistake. Just something to think about.</p>
<p>Bridie & mirimom:</p>
<p>don't forget that the vast majority of matriculating Vandy frosh "were sailing thru hs with great grades...", but, by definition, 49% of those matriculants will be in the bottom half of their college class. </p>
<p>xaerial: med & law school are nearly ALL about numbers (gpa+test scores), with extremely minor variations for extremely rigorous schools (e.g., Chicago). But, for other grad programs, research and prof recs count a bunch.</p>
<p>A college with a ~3.3 median gpa is not deflated, sorry.</p>
<p>Considering what I hear about certain ivies, a college with an average of 3.3 IS considered deflated! And for top students at colleges where there are relatively few students who were standouts in high school, a very high gpa is more attainable than it might be for those same students at a school full of high school standouts. That's how things work, though, and students have to decide how they want to play the game.</p>
<p>Getting back to the question that started this thread: What is bad about Vandy -- the answer we were trying to give is that getting a high gpa is extremely difficult. Of course there will be top and bottom halves, but I wasn't talking about my daughter's grades relative to others at Vandy. I was talking about her grades relative to her standardized test scores, and how hard she worked. She has compared notes with friends at other schools that are higher ranked by US news than Vandy -- looking at what kinds of problems were on tests, what material was covered in the textbooks, what kind of assignments were given and graded, etc. These are kids who are similar to my daughter in every way one might want to consider: same K-12 schools, same kinds of grades and scores, same kind of home environment, parents with the same kind of academic and professional experiences, same kinds of interests. And although this is not the least bit scientific, I can report to that kid that As in classes like intro level calculus, biology, economics -- are harder to get at Vandy than at, say: UVA, Hopkins, Haverford, Colgate, Rice -- not Ivy, but not junior colleges either. These kids say they got As with the same level of effort that they made in hs, and my daughter most definitely did not.</p>
<p>mirimom: Since I am the OP, I really appreciate your candor in this matter....My d's high school suffers from grade deflation for a very large majority of the kids in honors/AP classes; it is appropriately reflected in class rank (although not all colleges acknowledged, but that is for a different thread)....It is extremely useful information for her to know what she is getting into at a place like Vandy; she is used to it, but excellent "heads up" nevertheless...</p>
<p>It is interesting to me, however, that this thread has expressed grade deflation as the only "bad thing about Vandy".....Very impressive..... going to be a very tough decision in the next few weeks....</p>
<p>BTW, since we are still discussing the "grade deflation" situation, can someone chime in regarding grading in courses other than the supposed "weed-out" courses??. What about humanities? Managerial Studies? Writing? etc.?</p>
<p>kelsmom:</p>
<p>Harvard and Princeton (and Stanford, for that matter) do hand out a lot of A's (but, Princeton is in the process of reducing them); however, the other Ivies have a ~3.3 median from what 'data' I've seen. </p>
<p>Of course, Harvard and Princeton classes are comprised of ~25% near perfect test scores....</p>
<p>Bluebayou, funny you mentioned Princeton, because it was one I was thinking of as I wrote that! I understand that H & P have kids that are tippy top of the heap. And I happen to think that if you not only master the material but can actually apply it, you should have earned an A. The reality is, though, that there are some "lesser" schools that grade more on a bell-shaped curve, particularly in weed-out courses. I have no idea whether or not my alma mater still grades as ridiculously hard as it once did ... but many of my classes (not weed-outs) had curves on all tests. The class may have been full of very smart students, but 1/2 the class would end up under 85 (with anything under 70 a failing grade). What I am saying is, it happens ... there are schools that really limit A's, and there are schools that seem to have no limit on A's. I don't have an opinion about whether one way is better than another. I just know that it is reality & folks should be able to deal with the reality of the school they choose ... which is why this is a good point to bring up!</p>
<p>I'll shift the thread to a "good thing" that I just learned about while watching my local news this evening. Our sports anchor did a feature on how students at the University of Tennessee (boo,hiss!) would no longer receive free football tickets, but would be force to pay $15 per game for admission, raising a little over $1 million for the mens' athletics budget. As an alum of a rival school, I began my little solitary sneer while cooking, but had to stop it pretty quickly when the sports guy announced that in the SEC there are only two schools remaining that don't charge students for football tickets - Vanderbilt and the University of South Carolina.<br>
Am I the only one completely appalled by this? Evidently the logic for UT is the student activities fee doesn't contribute to the football program anymore. I understand how it is hard to stretch the activities fee as Vandy has cut back in this area as well (up through S's freshman year, yearbooks were provided as part of the fee; now $90), but as someone with the Southern mentality about football games as an integral part of the collegiate experience, I'm just blown away by this.</p>
<p>The other SEC schools have to do it 2VU. Too many students and too much demand in general for important tickets months in advance. That's the cool thing about a private school in the SEC that cares about its students.</p>