<p>For me, the biggest attractor to the honors college of my safety school, where I’ll be spending the next four years is that it reminds me that, even though I got rejected from all of my top choices, I still don’t suck that much and can count myself among some kind of intellectual or academic elite somewhere.</p>
<p>Remember, there are those people that cannot afford better schools…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>At least the students who go through that kind of AP classes can handle the coursework in college… until they get to graduate classes.</p>
<p>My daughter has chosen to participate in the honor’s program at Syracuse University instead of attending one of the more “selective” colleges to which she has been accepted. She has loved Syracuse ever since we set foot on the campus last fall. It was her “safety” school. She has been very torn as her other choices were more “selective/prestigious”.</p>
<p>In the process of making our final visits, we attended a meeting for the honors program on Friday. That meeting solidified her choice. She is thrilled at all the possibilities that will be opened up to her within this program. For me the most beneficial component is that extra personal guidance that may not have been so readily available. Most importantly (to a 17-year old girl), all the kids in the room seemed so nice and she felt she fit in.</p>
<p>As Swissmiss stated above, these programs are about what the student puts into them. They are not about the perks offered but about the students realizing their potential.</p>
<p>At my state university, students have said that Honors classes are much smaller and more academically rigorous. The students believe that the feel of Honors classes seem like a liberal arts college within their massive research university.</p>
<p>I’m applying for the money. My local honors colleges are the only ones that will give me full scholarships based only on merit and not need, in which case I’d get nothing. My parents earn enough that we won’t get fin aid but not enough that they can pay for me to go to Fancy LAC. Honors was what was left, as I want to stay close to home and thus can’t go around chasing scholarships.</p>
<p>^ For many students the in state honors colleges are the best financial options for either need based, merit or both. There are also several threads on CC discussing colleges that have automatic merit aid/scholarships.</p>
<p>
This is a wonderful example of the wild claims I talked about in post #10. Since it has received this glowing recommendation, let’s take a look at what Barksdale offers.</p>
<p>Will you be going to college with students just like the ones you would at an Ivy or top LAC? One benefit of a top college is the opportunity to study beside other smart kids, to challenge and be challenged by them in class, to take part in spirited discussion and debate. At Barksdale they say
At the Ivy’s the 25th percentile ACT, hardly a sure admit, would be around 30 according to [Ivy</a> League ACT Scores Comparison](<a href=“http://collegeapps.about.com/od/theact/a/act_side_x_side.htm]Ivy”>Ivy League ACT Score Comparison for Admission)</p>
<p>Ok, even if the students aren’t exactly the same, part of the “similar experience” is the chance to take classes from great profs. And I’m sure the ones that teach the classes at Ole Miss are as good and dedicated as they come. But do you have as many classes to choose from as at an Ivy or top LAC? Take a look at [Course</a> Lists | honors.olemiss.edu](<a href=“http://www.honors.olemiss.edu/blog/courses/courses]Course”>http://www.honors.olemiss.edu/blog/courses/courses) I see about 25 or so different classes offered. Somehow I suspect that they offer more classes at an Ivy or LAC.</p>
<p>And what about the rest of the classes? When you graduate from an Ivy or top LAC, all of your classes were taught by the same faculty and were with the same students. At Barksdale, it turns out that for “honors” you just need to take 29 out of the 120 credits required for graduation with those special honors classes and profs. The rest are in the regular U. Who are those students? At Ole Miss you are guaranteed admission with a HS GPA of 2.5 and an SAT (verbal + math) of 760. Presumably taking most of your classes geared to students of that level provides a “similar experience” to taking classes at a top LAC or an Ivy. </p>
<p>Of note, too, is that the viewbook for Barksdale advises students not to worry about taking honors classes instead of regular ones because, and this is a direct quote, “they aren’t harder; they’re just different.” I bet you didn’t know that the regular Ole Miss class was just as difficult as at an Ivy or top LAC, but now you do.</p>
<p>So is Ole Miss Honors just like attending an Ivy? I’ll let the readers decide for themselves.</p>
<p>Employers enjoy seeing “Honors College” on a transcript post graduation as well.</p>
<p>And typical of the breed, Barksdale makes the following claim in their viewbook
</p>
<p>I understand the argument here. I guess I never thought of the “Honors College” of any university as a replacement for an “elite school” education. I think studies have shown that in terms of outcomes it is the student that determines them more than the institutions. High achieving students are more likely to have high quality outcomes than lower achieving students regarless of the where they attend. Elite institutions obviously are going to have a much greater proportion of those high achieving students. Some kids because of cost issues or just bad luck may be excellent students but unable or not want to attend the highly selective elite university. I would suppose that an honors college would give them the opportunity to live with and surround themselves with students who are more likely to be smart and highly motivated than average for that university. Again, it will be the student who determines what they get from the experience.</p>
<p>Not sure if this is the case for all schools, but I know that U of Iowa and UT-Austin have honors programs where honors students take smaller, discussion-based classes and get dibs on prime research opportunities.</p>
<p>To MikeMac: Again, Honors Colleges provide an opportunity for students who can’t afford or don’t want to attend those types of schools to have access to small classes, outstanding faculty, research experience and a high level of engagement in and out of the classroom and puts students in the classroom with students that are high achieving. The Barksdale Honors College does just that.</p>
<p>As you see stated, that 28/1250/3.5 combination is simply a profile of the type of student who would apply. That does not mean that any student with those credentials will be admitted. The actual ACT average within the program is actually a little over 30 which seems to match the number you put out there. </p>
<p>29 credit hours is the requirement. By no means is that where all students stop with taking Honors courses. Graduates have taken upwards of 60-80 credit hours of Honors courses that are limited in size. This is done in addition to working on an Honors thesis (which is required of all Honors students) - you conveniently left that part out. </p>
<p>What makes you assume that all Ole Miss courses are geared to the lowest common denominator? That’s pretty naive. Ole Miss has a top notch Pharmacy School, School of Accountancy and programs like the Croft Institute for International Studies and Chinese Flagship Program so in or out of Honors, the courses are taught by outstanding professors who are graduates of many of the institutions that you are likely referring to. Columbia, Harvard, Yale, etc. are just a few of the institutions Ole Miss faculty hail from. We’re also the only public school in our state with a chapter of Phi Beta Kappa. </p>
<p>Ole Miss Honors graduates are attending the EXACT same graduate and professional schools as students from those “Ivies” and liberal arts colleges. If they weren’t, we wouldn’t have a program. Again, our Honors grads are not in huge amounts of debt. Our students have done amazing things and continue to do so.</p>
<p>I think you should do a bit more research and go beyond the surface. Maybe visit Oxford and Ole Miss. I’m sure you’ll love it. Hotty Toddy! These are the types of students that would be in class with someone in and out of Honors… </p>
<p>[Honors</a> College Alum Plans to Use Rotary Scholarship to Hone Understanding of International Business](<a href=“http://news.olemiss.edu/honors-college-alum-plans-to-use-rotary-scholarship-to-hone-understanding-of-international-business/]Honors”>Honors College Alum Plans to Use Rotary Scholarship to Hone Understanding of International Business - Ole Miss News)</p>
<p>[National</a> Merit Finalist Finds Croft Institute, Honors College Fill the Bill for International Career](<a href=“http://news.olemiss.edu/national-merit-finalist-finds-croft-institute-honors-college-fill-the-bill-for-international-career/]National”>National Merit Finalist Finds Croft Institute, Honors College Fill the Bill for International Career - Ole Miss News)</p>
<p>[Environmental</a> Passion Earns UM Student a Udall Scholarship](<a href=“http://news.olemiss.edu/environmental-passion-earns-um-student-a-udall-scholarship-2/]Environmental”>Environmental Passion Earns UM Student a Udall Scholarship - Ole Miss News)</p>
<p>[UM</a> Education Student Helps Schools Get $3,000 in Grants](<a href=“http://news.olemiss.edu/um-education-student-helps-schools-3000-grants/]UM”>UM Education Student Helps Schools Get $3,000 in Grants - Ole Miss News)</p>
<p>[Engineering</a> Student Turns Love of Cars into Fulbright Scholarship to Germany](<a href=“http://news.olemiss.edu/engineering-student-turns-love-of-cars-into-fulbright-scholarship-to-germany/]Engineering”>Engineering Student Turns Love of Cars into Fulbright Scholarship to Germany - Ole Miss News)</p>
<p>[Senior</a> Honors Student Named UM?s 13th Goldwater Scholar](<a href=“http://news.olemiss.edu/senior-honors-student-named-ums-13th-goldwater-scholar/]Senior”>Senior Honors Student Named UM's 13th Goldwater Scholar - Ole Miss News)</p>
<p>[UM</a> Student Lands Prestigious Scholarship for a Year?s Study in Germany](<a href=“http://news.olemiss.edu/um-student-lands-prestigious-scholarship-for-a-years-study-in-germany/]UM”>UM Student Lands Prestigious Scholarship for a Year's Study in Germany - Ole Miss News)</p>
<p>[Jake</a> McGraw Named UM?s 13th Truman Scholar](<a href=“http://news.olemiss.edu/mcgrawtruman0309/]Jake”>Jake McGraw Named UM's 13th Truman Scholar - Ole Miss News)</p>
<p>[Sandersville</a> Native Shad White Wins Coveted Rhodes Scholarship](<a href=“http://news.olemiss.edu/shadwhiterhodeswinner/]Sandersville”>Sandersville Native Shad White Wins Coveted Rhodes Scholarship - Ole Miss News)</p>
<p>Name Recognition.</p>
<p>My son graduated from the Honors College at Clemson in Engineering and is now in a doctoral program at MIT. His experience at Clemson could not have been better. He got reseach opportunities beginning his freshman year that I’m not sure his sister (who is at an Ivy) will ever get. That research experience led to top REUs, conference presentations, publications (his first was from the summer after his freshman year), funded travel, and so much more. His classes were challenging, small in size, taught by great professors. I tried to get my daughter to go to Clemson but she wanted that New England Ivy atmosphere. She’s happy where she’s at, but from my perspective, my son had the superior college experience.</p>
<p>Mike’s post is a good reason why it is important that our children learn critical thinking skills in college. Summarily, he would have you believe that the only top education you can get is in the IVY LEAGUES and that very smart students do not go to the lower ranked public or private schools. Of course, this is not only disproved by thirty years of research (see Annadad’s numerous posts on CC), but is patently ridiculous on its face. </p>
<p>It should be obvious to anybody that very smart kids often choose for financial or personal reasons to attend the less “ELITE” schools, so there are plenty of them around at lower tiered schools. </p>
<p>Additionally, Mike would have you believe that being around other smart kids somehow enhances your education. That is also ridiculous. Smart kids may challenge each other, but learning comes from listening and reading . . regardless of the level of the competition around you. In fact, my daughter attended a top 50 public school (per US NEWS ranking), and if anything, found the hyper competitive culture at that school a detriment rather than a plus. </p>
<p>And reading from so many posts on this board, I can understand that. How enjoyable could it be in a learning environment where many of the students are pompous and arrogant or cut throat? And having known many ivy league students (most of my family attended the IVY League), I think there is a very limited difference between the intellectual power of the ivy leaguers and those going to the public universities. Honestly, I see hardly any difference at all in the intelligence front.</p>
<p>Finally, my own public high school graduated a number of national merit finalists and a good portion of my high school went on to the Ivy League (more than 35 years ago) We have class reunions, facebook groups, etc. None of these people are any more successful than any others. There are as many doctors and lawyers from the non elite crowd as from the elite crowd.</p>
<p>
You are misinformed. Here is what Barksdale itself says
Well, call me naive then, but at a university that guarantees admission with a HS GPA of 2.5 and an SAT (verbal + math) of 760 – is one to assume that many or most classes are taught at a level far above those students?
Take a look at the link to the honors classes at Barksdale I gave earlier. Then look at the classes taught at your favorite LAC or top U. No comparison in the breadth offered. </p>
<p>You don’t give any statistics on how many units the average Barksdale student takes in honors, just the claim that someone, somewhere, has taken more than the minimum. And even if someone manages to take 60-80 credit hours of Honors instead of the bare minimum of 29, doesn’t that still leave about 1/2 taken in the regular U with students that can hardly be compared to those at top schools (and no doubt a level of challenge and expectations that match)?
Gee, no comment on how the Honors College itself assures students their classes are no harder than any other class at Ole Miss?</p>
<p>It’s interesting, too, to look at the contortions Honors proponents go thru to maintain their claims once the actual offerings are examined. Recall the overall standard is this
So there is a simple question on the table. If you attend Barksdale, will you have received an experience similar to what you would have received at an Ivy?</p>
<p>It turns out that only 25% of the Barksdale classes are actually required to be taught in the Honors College, although per collegeguider up to about 1/2 your education can be taken thru Honors. The rest, then, must be in the regular U. Is there anyone out there who seriously believes that taking 1/2 to 3/4 of your college classes in regular Ole Miss classes provides an experience similar to an Ivy? Perhaps collegeguider does, writing
Of course if the regular courses at Ole Miss are going to give you an experience similar to an Ivy, what’s the point of having Barksdale in first place? Everyone at Ole Miss must be getting an education similar to an Ivy!!!</p>
<p>The point of going to Ole Miss is because (1) it is less expensive (2) it is closer to home (3) students may feel more comfortable remaining in the South rather than going to the Northeast for school (4) students may more identify with classmates from their home state. There are a myriad number of reasons to go to Ole Miss rather than an Ivy League. You are under the impression that the Ivy League gives a better education than these other schools, but the studies prove beyond any doubt that this assumption is incorrect.</p>
<p>I personally have no doubt, NONE, that the top students at public schools are easily as intelligent as the average students at Ivy League Schools. Where the Ivies shine is that very rare student who actually is super intelligent. That’s not most ivy leaguers though, at least at the undergraduate level.</p>
<p>I like Erin’s Dad’s reply. Left unsaid is the benefit for bragging parents.</p>
<p>+1 to this:Quote:
“An honors college allows a bright student who may not be able to afford the sticker price of a “Ivy League” school to be able to get a similar experience at a MUCH lower price tag.
That AND it gives a capable kid a chance to be a great student at a good school, instead of being a good student at a great school. Big difference.”</p>
<p>My D1 is at a prestigue medium size private with $50k+ pricetag. She’ll come out an average student from the big name school. My D2 wants the public u in primo location w/honors program that has the small class size etc. To each their own. DII wants to shine, and stand out. DI wanted the prestige sheepskin. From what we’ve read DII…given decent grades…will have the better shot at grad school due to honors program designation. Of course all things are never equal.</p>