<p>mythmom:</p>
<p>Poor high school teachers abound, particularly in math and sciences. But, the same could be said for splitting other AP courses over two years, particularly Chem and AP Physics.</p>
<p>Our high school offers both AB and BC, you take one or the other, no question the stronger math students all take BC. If your high school doesn't offer both obviously you aren't going to get penalized. The kids who just took AB seemed to do okay in admissions. I guess the problem comes when they offer AB and BC as sequential courses.</p>
<p>mythmom
Points to consider:
Test statistics (sorry Calc, jk) show that students fare better on CalBC test than CalAB, better on Physics C than Physics B, better on Computer Science AB than ComSci A, better on SAT Math L2 than Math L1.</p>
<p>Yes, marite and fwm99, I do see your point. However, the cases I was referring to involved a math teacher telling students they did better on the BC portion of the text than on the AB portion of the test.</p>
<p>I don't really have an axe to grind here. S & D's school only offered AB; D did fine; S did better, but neither of them are really talented math students. I am sure most on this thread have kids more talented than they.</p>
<p>fwm99: That's because there is some overlap and the students taking the harder exams are generally the best students. So those statistics aren't as revealing as you might be implying.</p>
<p>interesting this battle among IB, AB, BC< and whatever Calc classess</p>
<p>my class is harder than your class, nah nah nah</p>
<p>WHO CARES!!!!????</p>
<p>better to ask the majortiy of adults if they would have, looking back, two years of calc, or one year and another math oriented course</p>
<p>but me guesses that the math profs of the world wouldn't like the answers they got</p>
<p>also, if kids today were told that taking AP Stats or Econ, or someother math course is okay with the colleges, that they can do math and should of course, but it can be someting besides that second year of Calc, and that they could use that ttime in another academic course- world lit, ethics, philosophy, etc, kids would JUMP at the chance in droves</p>
<p>just a hunch</p>
<p>and this arbitrary, and yes it is arbitrary way of determining smart students from "brilliant" or whatever would be shown for what it is, just a small part of the puzzle, though many seem to want it to be a huge piece</p>
<p>I took ONE year of calculus in high school and took the BC exam. (Didn't do too well.) Took a lot of time off math and took that same material in college in ONE year. I wish I'd taken statistics, but I have to admit it never occurred to me that I should at the time - architecture school required calculus so that's what I took. It did occur to me to take computer programming, but it was not for me at all. No regrets about taking it though it's my only C.</p>
<p>The original post was questioning the need for ANY calculus at all, and somehow this got twisted into "why do colleges requires 2 years of H.S. calculus" and "why does my H.S. demand 2 years of calculus". Well neither of those statements sound likely.</p>
<p>Name a college that even mentions 2 years of calculus on their admissions page. Here is M.I.T.'s:
Academics
A strong academic foundation in high school both improves your odds of getting into MIT and will help you make the most of the Institute when you're here. We recommend that your high school years include the following:</p>
<p>One year of high school physics
One year of high school chemistry
One year of high school biology
Math, through calculus
Two years of a foreign language
Four years of English
Two years of history and/or social sciences </p>
<p>Our H.S. which is very highly rated, offers regular calculus, AP Calculus 1 and AP Calculus 2, all of which are full year courses. I would say that 40% of the students don't even take any calculus. Of the rest, some take just regular calculus, and then the most motivated/gifted will just take AP1or AP2 without any regular calculus prior to that. So, yeah, 1 year. And these kids get into Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Princeton etc.</p>
<p>Quicksilver: "That's because there is some overlap and the students taking the harder exams are generally the best students."</p>
<p>I guess that was the point I tried to bring up to mythmom, although I would'nt phrase it as "the best student"</p>
<p>However, I did misunderstand mythmom's post (#139) - sorry mythmom! - because what mythmom actually said was A particular student may do better on the BC portion than the AB; and I think it's entirely possible/happened.</p>
<p>cgm:</p>
<p>You continue to ignore the question of WHO/WHAT requires two years of calc? 'Two required calc years' has been your mantra for more than a year now; where did it originate?</p>
<p>Because that is considered the "toughest" path- if you take heaven forbid AP Stats or Econ, you aren't taking the toughest load, which is what colleges say they are looking for</p>
<p>CGM,
My son did not take two years of calculus in high school. He is successfuly managing an engineering curriculum, and math classes are among the courses where he performs the highest. He currently tutors for the university- guess what- calculus. He did not take two years of calculus or even the highest level of calculus in high school, not because he was not smart or hard working enough, but because he played two varsity sports and was taking multiple other AP classes at the same time. It was really a matter of how much (or rather, how little) studying he could get away with and not bomb his GPA. Basically, it came down to a strategic decision involving tradeoffs.</p>
<p>Math, or anything else for that matter, isn't something that you either get when you're in high school or are forever doomed not to have. Conceivably, a student could have NO calculus in high school, go to college and end up doing well in maths and sciences. I know this because my H did, after spending 4 years in the service during the 60's- he had to start taking math from the level of algebra during college because he'd been out of the loop for so long. He ended up with a 3.9 in electrical engineering.</p>
<p>Some people are really good at math, calculus, whatever. OK. Some are better at writing papers and analyzing poetry. Great. Some are great at computer programming. Whatever...it takes all kinds. No one here has said that you have to be a calculus whiz to be brilliant or talented. It takes all kinds to make the world a better place.</p>
<p>I also understood calculus a lot better at 19 than I did at 16.</p>
<p>I've always wondered why foreign language is valued so much less than higher math. (I mean, learning one well, not the way 95% of American college applicants do.) A lot of the same arguments that are always used for math apply to learning another language as well (stretch brain, different way of seeing the world, master abstract system etc. etc. etc.) but no one ever seems to make them.</p>
<p>Only in America. Believe me in the rest of the world, people think learning a foreign language or two is very important.</p>
<p>This talk about calculus and foreign languages reminds me of what happened here in Ontario.</p>
<p>About a decade ago, a very conservative government was elected. One of its platforms was to make the curriculum more challenging. In talking to the local candidate, I suggested with a straight face that the curriculum was fine but that a lot of students were avoiding the tough courses. All the government had to do to solve the problem was to make senior calculus and a senior course in a second language compulsory for graduation.</p>
<p>Naturally they did not take my advice, and the government that succeed them are still dealing with the fallout.</p>
<p>Hmmm. I'm glad I didn't go to that high school! (winky face).</p>
<p>I am also coming to this discussion fairly late, but there are several good reasons why study of calculus in high school is beneficial.</p>
<p>The positive effect of the study of mathematics on science education: Increased study of mathematics in high school directly correlates with increased success in college science classes including physics, chemistry and even biology. A recent study in Science Magazine (July 2007) based on data from 77 randomly selected colleges showed such a direct link. The more mathematics the students took in high school, the better they performed across the board in science. It is also interesting to note that increased study of physics, chemistry or biology in high school only had an effect in their respective disciplines. Only mathematics showed this “out-of-discipline” effect. It is not surprising therefore to find that the top students in most science disciplines are generally also the top students in mathematics. Virtually all medical schools require the study of calculus (sometimes through differential equations), not because the techniques in themselves will be needed by the students during their medical studies but because a high level of study in mathematics will correlate with an improved ability to perform in the biomedical sciences. In an increasingly technical world, mathematics is the barometer of scientific literacy.<br>
<a href="http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/weblog_entry.php?t=160270%5B/url%5D">http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/weblog_entry.php?t=160270</a></p>
<p>Why calculus specifically? Simply because calculus is very general and a sort of survey course of all core mathematical concepts.Calculus requires mastery of all basic fields of mathematics including geometry, trigonometry, algebra and probability theory. Only calculus acts as the great unifier across all core fields of mathematics. In most US high schools, study of calculus is preceded by a year of “pre-calculus” which is designed to allow students to master the prerequisites. You simply cannot perform at a high level in calculus unless you already master all the core fields first. This is clearly not true of algebra, trigonometry which can be (and are) typically studied on their own. </p>
<p>Calculus is an introduction to the much wider field of mathematical analysis and to deep philosophical concepts Calculus is really the introduction to the wider field of mathematical analysis which also includes functional analysis, complex analysis, numerical analysis, differential geometry and topology. At that point the study of mathematics stops being number crunching and becomes a more sophisticated and cerebral activity. Numbers are replaced by symbols, calculations by proofs. Non mathematicians are sometimes perplexed when mathematicians speak in terms of the elegance of a mathematical proof or the beauty of an equation. For purists, this is not unlike studying the structure of a poem, the symmetry of a musical composition or a painting. Many of the most important developments in modern science are tied to developments in mathematical analysis. Some have universal appeal well beyond science and truly have deep philosophical ramifications. Mathematics and philosophy have been closely tied since antiquity. Nowhere is that link stronger than in mathematical analysis. Einstein’s work allows us to speculate about the origin of the universe and the meaning of the relativity of time and space directly resulting from the analytical representation of his ideas. Quite extraordinarily, he developed the theories first based on intuition. Experimental verification by others came much later. He spent most of his last 30 years in life in a deep, near "religious" quest for a unifying theory of all forces in nature, all through mathematics. Much of quantum physics also involves deep philosophical concepts such as uncertainty and causality directly derived from the mathematical expression of the theories. The actual physical consequences of these theories are still being debated. In many ways the study of calculus provides a glimpse into these concepts.</p>
<p>I am amazed to find out that some hs's offer Calc AB as a one semester course; do they then give Calc BC also as one semester so you do both in one school year. Here, the schools that offer both (not all do) give them as one year each so it would take 2 yrs to do both. Perhaps it is the selective colleges saying they are looking at the "strength of curriculum" on your transcript that makes people think they must do both if offered by the hs, and hence 2yrs.</p>
<p>My kids school only offers Calc AB, no stats, no econ, so hence no problem. They take everything the school offers and we don't worry about it. No problems getting in any school they want to attend. If there were more choices, I would let them do what they wanted to do, and see where they got in. If you do only what the colleges want you never find out who you are. I say this after having let my S talk me into letting him not take physics in hs. He is going to be a music major, so I guess it doesn't matter, and btw, he has the highest grade in the class in Calc AB.</p>
<p>also, btw - state u now requires Calc 1 and Calc 2 for bio majors 'cause they say the field is more inter disciplinary now and biologist need more calculus to discuss stuff with colleaques once they're out in world working.</p>
<p>on a personal note, I took Calc 1,2 and 3 in college just cause I liked it and thought it was fun. I also took logic and philosophy classes and I do feel, if only intuitively, that the combo allows me to both argue effectively and also to understand (and perhaps tear down) the arguments of others. It is a lot easier to see the fallacies of the arguments put forth in the media and elsewhere if you get that logical thinking down good and proper. The average citizen doesn't have it, which is scary.</p>
<p>My school doesn't offer AB as a semester course, but AB material is included in the BC course which is a yearlong course. You take AB or BC not one and then the other. I'd guess of the 60 or so kids who started off taking Algebra in 8th grade about two-thirds opt to take AB as seniors, if they take calculus at all. Only a few kids are on track to take calculus as juniors and they all take BC because they are the math whizzes.</p>