<p>Cooper Union is in New York City. It is a school of art, architecture, and engineering, with a very small enrollment. Tuition is free, and some of the engineering programs are said to be brutal.</p>
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CalTech and Harvard, hands down.
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<p>Harvard? No way. It's practically impossible to actually flunk out at Harvard.</p>
<p>Reed, UChicago, possibly St. John's.</p>
<p>how do you do the quote thing?</p>
<p>oh and sorry about the Harvard thing... :D... guess i got pretty traumatized on the college admission process section...</p>
<p>i'm not claiming that MIT has an average gpa of 3.3 it was hypothetical. </p>
<p>and the title of the entire thread is "what's the most academically challenging school" gave it away that the overall theme of the thread was not grade deflation. </p>
<p>Also, that article doesnt say that overall, averge grades in all classes are going up. Rather it says students are picking easier electives to boost gpa's now that the grades are available online. So, the hard intro and required classes are just as difficult and deflated as always. But, students might actually look into that lame "history of perfume" class as an elective if the average grade given out for the class is an A-. I would!</p>
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But, students might actually look into that lame "history of perfume" class as an elective if the average grade given out for the class is an A-.
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<p>Which is extremely sad, imho.</p>
<p>yeah well tell that to grad schools who care about undergraduate gpa. An 'easy' class is a nice break from the regular academic load here as well.</p>
<p>Do recruiters take into consideration the grade inflation?</p>
<p>i.e: Is a 4.0 GPA @ UMCP better than a 3.5 @ MIT?</p>
<p>Let me post this practical question?
I have a son at UPenn bioengineering now. He has to work very hard just to be a B to B+ student. (he was one of the top in his class at a one of the most academically competitive hs in the S.F. bay area).According to him, his pre-med friends have to work very hard too and A's in the pre-med are not easy to come by.
He has a classmate at Brown. He is smart but not super smart.He is easily cruising at Brown and getting very good GPA due to a combination of grade inflation, the manipulation of the P/Foption, and the school's policy of non registration of any grade lower C in the external transcript. PLease do not take this as trolling Brown. I know it has a great reputation.
For my younger son who is a junior, he is considering both Brown and Penn. How would you advise him. Which school would set him up better for jobs , med. school or grsduate schools. If both are equal, should he choose an easier school like Brown?</p>
<p>I think you need to decide whether to go premed or not. The grade requirements for such programs are quite narrow. I can't speak to easiness of grading in comparing the two schools.</p>
<p>Leaving out med school, Brown and Penn or any of a dozen good schools would provide good opportunities and tough challenges for engineering and business. If you go into a technical field, you'll be judged on the type of classes you take, your grades, but also the quality of letters. You might gain more from doing a serious research project or a quality business internship than upping your grades by 0.25 or so points.</p>
<p>As for the original question, if you judge by the average quality of students, the difficulty and rigor of the <strong>minimum</strong> course load, and the percentage who don't graduate, it's difficult to claim that even MIT, Chicago, or Swarthmore are more challenging than Caltech. Math 1, 2 and Ph1,2 are required for all majors and are quite rigorous. There is no "easier" section for non-majors as in most schools. And of course, no one else requires two years of heavy duty proof-based Calc and Physics up to QM for econ or lit majors. Then you have the fact that only 85% or so of the entering class that manages to graduate. In the sixties and seventies, the percentage was lower still. I know of 2 cases -- one who transferred to Stanford, and the other to Chicago who raised their GPA significantly after the move. Of course, at almost all schools it is possible to construct a program or enter a major that is extremely challenging, hence my use of the minimum difficulty standard.</p>
<p>But these days, a lot fewer people fail, compared to the early rates of 40-50% getting an F in at least one quarter. Only 70% of Caltech freshmen ever managed to graduate from Tech back then. So things have been somewhat "inflated", but only in a relative sense.</p>
<p>Don't believe the rumors about Case. The workload there is actually not that heavy.</p>
<p>Well in keeping with the spirit of the original question? Let me play the devil's advocate.
Why would one go to an academically challenging school when an easier school can give you just as good a stepping stone to graduate schools or job, (or even better chance to med schools due tograde inflation), just purely on its reputation.
Isn't it better to have more fun and good times when you can still get the same results? You can make up all the serious learning while you are in the graduate level, which is what counts anyway.
And as far as jobs, it's mostly network, people skills and business sense that determine one's sucess, rarely didectic knowledge.</p>
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Why would one go to an academically challenging school when an easier school can give you just as good a stepping stone to graduate schools or job, (or even better chance to med schools due tograde inflation), just purely on its reputation.
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<p>Because I'm in school to learn, not just to get a GPA. I have awesome teachers and classmates and classes and labs and opportunities I may never have again. I love learning about engineering, which is why I'm in engineering school. I've gotten to the point where I don't enjoy classes where I feel like the grading is too easy because I feel like the teacher doesn't think I'm capable of anything more.</p>
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and the title of the entire thread is "what's the most academically challenging school" gave it away that the overall theme of the thread was not grade deflation.
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<p>Actually, I would say that grade deflation is part and parcel to "academic challenge". After all, any school can just assign massive amounts of ridiculously difficult work. But the question then becomes, what if you don't do it? What happens to you? If you don't do it and get a good grade anyway, then I would say that, really, that school isn't very challenging.</p>
<p>Cooper Union is in NYC. I've heard that it's harder to get into than Harvard. It's a great education...AND IT'S FREE!</p>
<p>Oops, I didn't see there was a page 2.</p>
<p>SonataX, do you go to Case. I've been looking for an insider's opinion on the work load and how tough they grade, ideally for a premed student. (I've been considering doing premed with a psych major). I applied and really like the school. However, I don't see how a school like MIT could be comparable in grade deflation.</p>
<p>Places like St. John's College and Marlboro College sound pretty tough, as well as the traditionals repeatedly named which get enough attention.</p>
<p>not quite old, doesn't Harvey Mudd have some two year super intensive mathematics thing, too? Your description reminded me of it.</p>
<p>this thread is based on a bunch of myths....</p>
<p>check</p>
<p>gradeinflation.com</p>
<p>some schools have more inflation than others...face it</p>
<p>Harvard, Stanford, and Brown are a few of those places</p>
<p>some places aren't easy with the grades
MIT, Cal Tech, </p>
<p>i really don't know much about the grading at chicago (i was accepted afterall) but ppl think its soo hard but where does this come from, did you guys attend chicago</p>
<p>i think that cornell is pretty dam difficult and challenging and i really don't care about that article Mini is posting how the median GPA is a 3.34 in 2004 when gradeinflation.com shows numerous places at 3.38+ in 1999-2000 and I am sure their rate of inflation has grown.</p>
<p>The most challenging school for a given idividual is likely to be the one that is the least suitable to his/her interests or abilities.</p>
<p>I had a friend at Cornell who was receiving horrible grades in an engineering program. He ultimately switched to majoring in econ, and performed well enough to make it a few years later to Harvard Business School.</p>
<p>Interesting web site. But I don't see MIT or Cal Tech mentioned, nor Cornell.</p>
<p>Looking at the trend line for all colleges examined, Harvard and Brown are slightly below and Stanford is slightly above. They don't really stick out. One of the outliers above the line is Chicago.</p>
<p>Of course, the original question was where is it academically challenging, not average grades. Average grades don't tell you how hard courses or the grading scales are, unless you assume that the students at different schools are pretty much the same. People who get into certain schools may be more highly qualified and prone to working harder than those at other schools. So I don't know that it is valid to see higher grades at one school and automatically assume that it is easier than a school with somewhat lower grades. One place with low grades and no inflation through the years is U Nebraska - Kearney. Do we therefore conclude that it is easier than Harvard?</p>
<p>Two other factors to consider. It is my feeling that the pass/fail option is much more available now than in the past. If students are making use of this more in their difficult classes (i.e., the ones that they would get lower grades in), the average GPA will go up even if the grading in regularly graded courses remains the same. Also, college entry is increasingly competitive due to demographics. So the average qualifications and abilities at many schools are going up. Professors may be grading the same, but seeing more accomplished students. </p>
<p>A word finally about Brown. Because of the S/NC option, it is my understanding that GPA isn't really calculated and would be a meaningless figure. (At least, someone recently said this on another thread!) Yes, you could do lots of classes this way, but grad schools and potential employers will see that and judge you accordingly, not by some meaningless number. On another board, I was told that about 1/3 of Brown's grades are A's. I don't know if the fraction takes those taking something S/NC into account or not.</p>
<p>In terms of difficulty, classes vary. But this is probably true everywhere. It also depends on the student. My daughter found her introductory hieroglyphs class to be very easy. Someone else reported that her friend took it and found it very hard and was studying all the time. But then, my daughter is concentrating in Egyptology and the poster's friend was not.</p>