<p>I think it is pretty established that peers can influence behavior of college students.</p>
<p>monydad - I didn’t think you made the numbers up. I was just curious if there was a source that people relied upon. I have looked at class size numbers before and they vary quite a bit from site to site. I was hoping to find one that people considered reliable.</p>
<p>Today, I ran into someone whose son goes to Brown (and their parents pay full tuition and can’t afford it) and he turned down a full scholarship to Brandeis. </p>
<p>His parents wanted him to take classes at the community college where I am currently taking classes over the summer but their son told them that there were no summer classes offered at that campus, only “camps” (which was a lie) and he’s just staying home over the summer doing nothing. (and no, I didn’t tell them that I was taking classes there or that could’ve ended badly for him). But from that conversation it seemed to me that this kid had was way too concerned about prestige. I think some of this attitude can be contributed from your peers that you hang out with etc… or maybe it’s just a personal perception problem?</p>
<p>" I was just curious if there was a source that people relied upon."</p>
<p>I think the Common Data Set submissions have this data. Though I can’t guarantee that’s what I wound up with. Nor can I guarantee that individual institutions are not fudging some submissions to Common Data Set.</p>
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<p>C’mon - I think you know what she meant by this. She meant, as you said, students who would have reasonably been in-the-ballpark if they had been interested. I think from your vantage point, there’s a severe case of Ivy Fever gripping the nation; some of us just don’t see it quite that way or don’t live in areas where those 8 are elevated so much more highly than any number of excellent schools.</p>
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<li>I’m not exactly sure if im allowed to post here*</li>
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<p>I was actually considering going to a state school (SUNY Stony Brook) as the tuition is affordable and it’s a great research school. Whenever I see posters on these forums, though, I always notice how private institutions are held with a much higher regard than state institutions.</p>
<p>Wouldn’t it make more sense to go to be relatively debt free during your undergrad years so you can make more difficult monetary decisions afterwords? </p>
<p>I’d personally prefer to gain acceptance to Stony Brook’s honors college (I want to major in computer science) than face inevitable rejection by the ivy league universities who could have potentially lost a great and dedicated student [almost every poster on cc can/could say this at one point].</p>
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<p>WADR, isn’t that a little disingenuous? I would find it hard to believe you don’t pay attention to that signaling effect, both personally and professionally.</p>
<p>“Seeing that happen made me grateful for my own relatively elite education, because whatever I can say about it, it was ok and even cool to be smart and driven.”</p>
<p>Well, this just keeps coming up so it’s clearly an issue. And, I’m guessing, one of the reasons why we have honors colleges popping up in so many state schools, as a way to both to attract top students and offer them a shared community. But every kid is different, and some do better being a big fish in the pond. I was one of those smart state school kids and I don’t seem to recall being viewed as uncool! And I’m quite grateful for my education too, coming from very modest beginnings. Bottom line, this is a very individual choice. If we can look back at a good experience and outcome, that’s terrific, but it doesn’t necessarily mean another environment would have been wrong. Plenty of our leaders and CEOS are from state schools…and are loyal supporters of their colleges…so something must be RIGHT with them (vs. wrong as suggested by the topic of this thread!).</p>
<p>Lots of our leaders and CEOs ARE from state schools, including my CEO who is one of the most respected CEOs in our industry and among Fortune 500 leaders. He is a LSU grad and proud of it. I could not respect anyone more. Other executives in my company are grads of Stephen F. Austin (state school in TX) and Humboldt State (CA). We aren’t school snobs here, although we have some of the more selective schools on the roster, too. I do think the world is different today, though, and there is less willingness to start with nothing and work your way up. A more prestigious degree is viewed (not always correctly) as a hedge against this.</p>
<p>^^^ “A more prestigious degree is viewed (not always correctly) as a hedge against this.”</p>
<p>It partly depends on one’s career field and the part of the country in which you live. Of course, the most important factor is what once does with that education one you get your foot in the door.</p>
<p>(Dare I mention the obvious school, whose graduates played such a huge role in the financial meltdown?)</p>
<p>Well, with the economy as it is, a prestigious degree may indeed help with job prospects for new grads. My instinct is that we’re talking very top schools though…Ivy or equivalent. But state grads with the large and loyal alumni networks have something going for them too. It’s just that these grads need to actively pursue this connections…those who stand back will probably end up with nothing.</p>
<p>Okay, let’s look at some possible scenarios:</p>
<p>Student A is a high-achiever with Ivy-level stats. The Krueger/Dale study implies that the decision between the Ivy and the state school will probably not affect earning potential, with the exception of low-income students who would get great aid at the top private anyway. Most criticism of this study centers around the lack of control for motivation in making the choice, but I’m willing to stipulate that those with a strong financial incentive to attend the elite school (prospective IBankers, etc.) should probably do so. Meanwhile, this student would be eligible for the very best available as one of the top students at the state school. There seems to be widespread agreement in this thread that such a position is excellent.</p>
<p>Student B is a more “average” student and will fit near the middle of the pack at the state school, but wants to work hard in college. While I agree that the average student at a top private will have more available, the simple fact is that Student B will not get into a top private. And in the comparison between the state school and lower-ranked private, I become increasingly inclined to favor the former. There are many excellent private schools in this country, but statistically speaking the larger state school will likely offer a) a larger numerical quantity of academically motivated peers based purely on size, b) a greater likelihood of attracting such students from in-state, c) higher profile faculty attracted by research, and d) more recognition based on size, flagship status, or athletic success. Further, the price difference may be significant because large financial aid at the private is less likely while the price tag remains high.</p>
<p>I’m not trying to pick a fight here. There are some truly excellent private schools, many of which are not very well known or ranked. I think very highly of several such institutions. But I think many are inclined to establish false comparisons between Harvard and X Regional State University that are not valid.</p>
<p><<i do=“” think=“” the=“” world=“” is=“” different=“” today,=“” though,=“” and=“” there=“” less=“” willingness=“” to=“” start=“” with=“” nothing=“” work=“” your=“” way=“” up.=“” a=“” more=“” prestigious=“” degree=“” viewed=“” (not=“” always=“” correctly)=“” as=“” hedge=“” against=“” this.=“”>></i></p><i do=“” think=“” the=“” world=“” is=“” different=“” today,=“” though,=“” and=“” there=“” less=“” willingness=“” to=“” start=“” with=“” nothing=“” work=“” your=“” way=“” up.=“” a=“” more=“” prestigious=“” degree=“” viewed=“” (not=“” always=“” correctly)=“” as=“” hedge=“” against=“” this.=“”>
<p>I think there are some people who believe that an ivy education will smooth the way for an “easier” road to the top. Unfortunately, the reality is that while that ivy diploma might get you in the door - you still have to work hard and be responsible, dependable, respectful, honest, conscientious, and - most importantly - realize that you still have a lot to learn.</p>
<p>My DH is a coach/mentor for several young employees (3-5 years of experience). They come from a variety of schools (all have MS degrees) - ivies, non-ivy but top private, top state schools, and little known state schools. He recently had to choose one of them for a special project (it was a pretty big deal). He chose the employee from the well-known state school. The ivy school employee was his last choice. Why? “Because she just assumed that she would be the one picked.” </p>
<p>Oh - and before I forget - GEAUX TIGERS!<br>
DS #2 is trying to choose between LSU and Oklahoma (OU) and as a New Orleans gal - I am SOOOO torn because they would both be great schools for him.</p>
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<p>It’s a bit disingenuous to say that there is no difference between the state flagship (and even these differ enormously: one cannot compare UMich to something like URI) and the other smaller tier 3 and down state schools.</p>
<p>I know in my own state, that the bright kids who can’t afford anything else go to our state flagship. It’s OK (not any UVA or UNC) and many kids do just fine there. But we have a lot of other smaller state schools, with relatively low entrance requirements (some of the weakest students go to these schools). There is simply no comparison between this type of public and the state flagship, primarily because of the predominant type of student, opportunities, etc. You do NOT find HYPS kids at “those” state schools, except perhaps a tiny, tiny minority. </p>
<p>Of course, I don’t think the brightest kids attend lower tier privates either, and given a choice between a low tier private and the state flagship, I would choose the latter in a heartbeat. Given the choice between low tier private and low tier public, I’d choose the public because it is cheaper.</p>
<p>But comparing the flagship to all the smaller “Western State X” or" XXX State U" is comparing apples and oranges.</p>
<p>“I think there are some people who believe that an ivy education will smooth the way for an “easier” road to the top. Unfortunately, the reality is that while that ivy diploma might get you in the door - you still have to work hard and be responsible, dependable, respectful, honest, conscientious, and - most importantly - realize that you still have a lot to learn.”</p>
<p>But look at so many of the Ibankers----work hard? yes; responsible and honest? ha ha ha</p>
<p>“…given a choice between a low tier private and the state flagship, I would choose the latter in a heartbeat. Given the choice between low tier private and low tier public, I’d choose the public because it is cheaper.”</p>
<p>I guess we’re just different. Given that choice I would look closer and figure out which environment was actually likely to be a better fit for my kid, providing I had the $$. For example, if there was a “sink or swim” state flagship, and I determined in such environment my kid was likely to sink, and a smaller more intimate environment might work better for my kid, I might not make your choice, if I could afford otherwise. Or maybe i would, but it would take more than 'a heartbeat".</p>
<p>If I couldn’t afford otherwise then yes the more affordable option would be preferred in every circumstance, with much less regard for other considerations.</p>
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<p>I hear you. My kid would sink like a rock at the bigger school.</p>
<p>Delta66 – That’s true some places, and less true others. My original home state, NY, has never really had a flagship (although several campuses love to claim that they are it). My current state, Pennsylvania, has a clear flagship, Penn State, that many top-quality students turn down in favor of urban cousins Temple or Pitt. Next door is New Jersey, which has a flagship that seems to get dissed in favor of other options a whole lot. Virginia has an admirable flagship in UVa, but you will find lots of people who argue for the superiority of William & Mary. There are states where a secondary university seems to have surpassed the traditional flagship (Mississippi? Kansas?), states where it has pretty clearly caught up (California), and states where some specialized school has a much better rep than the flagship (Georgia, Indiana?, Colorado?). By the time you’re done, that’s an awful lot of the U.S. population without a clear flagship.</p>
<p>University of Georgia, Indiana University and University of Colorado at Boulder are the undeniable “flagships” in those states. </p>
<p>I don’t know every state, or their flagships, but there are usually (always?) “a” state school that gets more funding than the others. This is what I am speaking of.</p>
<p>Virginia is unusual with W&M and UVA. Maybe Cal too.</p>
<p>I have looked a lot at private high schools in my area. Yes, the smaller environment might be better for my last child, but the less competitive schools do not have an appropriate academic peer group for her (or enough of a stretch in her areas of academic strength). So, while I would like her to have smaller classes, I want her to have appropriate peers and challenges too.</p>
<p>I think the same is often true at the college level. The lower tier privates certainly have the benefit of being smaller and perhaps more nurturing, etc. But it really does not mean that there is an academic peer group there for every type of student. The bigger school would be more likely to offer that, just by sheer numbers.</p>
<p>Maybe that is right back to the “fit” question.</p>
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<p>CC is not representative of the attitudes of the majority of people you are likely to encounter.<br>
So you get a very, very distorted view point here, both on the issue of how pubic institutions are regarded in general, and how employers look at degrees. </p>
<p>Prospective employers come in all walks. The most important thing they look at in hiring, after the degree, is the EXPERIENCE presented on the resume, NOT the name of the college. It helps if they recognize the college, but most are pretty familiar with the public institutions of their home state, and very often the highest name recognition comes via the school’s performance on the athletic fields. Some may tend to favor their own alma maters a bit – but that alma mater can just easily be a lower tier public. </p>
<p>I also find the whole “flagship” thing rather CC-specific – I never even heard the term “flagship” for a university until coming on to CC, despite being a UC grad and living in California for all of my adult life. From the standpoint of a California employer, a UC is a UC. Yes, everyone knows that these days it is harder to get into Berkeley or UCLA … but its pretty common to choose other campuses and it isn’t looked down upon in any way. </p>
<p>Of course a degree from a more selective college is perceived in a slightly better light – but that’s really of lesser importance than other facts on the resume. My d. just graduated from an elite private school, but the single most important factor leading to her getting the job was an internship she did in India – she was interviewed by at least half a dozen different people for the position, and they all kept asking about New Delhi. It’s a dream job for her, working in a place that highly values academics, but she has coworkers with the same job title who are graduates of CUNY’s. </p>
<p>My son graduated from a CSU. He, too, found a perfect job, ideally suited to his major and interests, immediately after graduating. He, too, had a resume with work experience that telegraphed that he was ideally suited for the position he was seeking. </p>
<p>I suppose that if the person’s goal is to work for a Wall Street IBanker, then the reality is that those companies recruit at elite schools and pay entry level salaries that are much higher than what the typical college grad will get. But the competition is keen for those positions – there must be dozens of Ivy students who interview for and get turned down for the plum jobs that some of their classmates get – and there are a lot of unemployed IBankers around. It’s not necessarily a good plan for long-term job security. And 99% of students who go to college have something else in mind for their degrees in any case. </p>
<p>There’s an old joke, “what do you call a medical student who graduates at the bottom of his class?” Answer: “Doctor”. I think the same can be said of the name of the school on the degree. (What do you call a graduate of the University of Nebraska College of Medicine?)</p>