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<p>Yeah - I agree 100%.</p>
<p>I think my niece’s school may be an extreme example, but i don’t think it’s that rare for a high school to have three different physics courses.</p>
<p>"I want to reassure anyone reading this that it isn’t the norm to have gone beyond Calculus in senior year, even for the students who get accepted to highly selective schools.
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<p>Sample of two. S accepted to a top 20 u, is in Calc AB as a senior. D accepted to top 5 LAC, represents school in math team, is in Calc BC as a senior. Kids from the school are going to Yale, Stanford, Chicago and NU and all are either in Calc AB or BC. </p>
<p>I was a math major and I don’t even see the point or rush to go beyond calc in hs.</p>
<p>My kid’s gc told me that if students don’t take either AB or BC calc, he won’t check the “most rigorous” box.</p>
<p>Our suburban public district, most kids take algebra I in 8th grade, followed by geometry in 9th, algebra II in 10th, trig/precalc in 11th, and some form of calc in 12th if they continue on in math. There is a dual enrollment calc, AP calc AB, and calc BC to choose from. Some get tracked for Alg I in 7th, so are a year ahead and usually take AP stat somewhere in there. A rare few take online courses after Calc. </p>
<p>My oldest 2 kids were bored in middle school math, so I made sure the youngest got on the fastest track, and she is excelling in math, thriving on the additional challenge. My oldest took both AP Stat and AP calc AB as a senior.</p>
<p>In my high school 30 years ago, I took Alg I, geometry, alg II/trig and calc. Although it was not an AP class, I took the AB test and got a 4. A lot of kids in my engineering college were farther ahead in math than I was.</p>
<p>In our case, our S was doing his own pushing earlier on, which set him on his accelerated math path. S (now at Northwestern) noted a very bright girl in his school (now at Princeton) was taking a math class in the summer to accelerate. So he asked H, a math prof, if he’d teach him over the summer so he could skip ahead in math, like his friend was doing. I’ll never forget watching H and S pouring over an algebra book while we flew on an overseas trip.</p>
<p>This set S up (once he passed the algebra test) for geometry in 7th, honors algebra II in 8th (taken next door at the HS), honors trig in 9th, AP calculus BC in 10th, linear algebra in 11th and multivariable calculus in 12th (the latter two as online classes.)</p>
<p>This was not a common path. Only three other MS students were taking honor algebra II at the HS when he did. None of them went as far as he did in math during their HS years, although I believe they did take AP calc BC as sophomores and then went a less rigorous route and took AP Stats either junior or senior year. S’s AP calc teacher saw something in him and challenged S to work with us to take a more rigorous route. Thus, S earned the glowing letter of recommendation he received from that teacher.</p>
<p>When DS2 had an alumna offspring interview at UPenn, they were very upfront about needing Calc BC to be a viable candidate for Wharton. So there is some pressure coming from the colleges too.</p>
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<p>Most students at my son’s school find AP Physics B much tougher than calculus. There’s a huge amount of material covered, and you’re expected to remember the appropriate formulas – I think there was a stack of over 100 formulas that my son was supposed to have created flashcards for. My son didn’t bother, but the teacher didn’t care, because he aced every test and the game his classmates played with him was to try to “catch him” on one he didn’t know. In my son’s case, these formulas went into permanent memory after he analyzed each one to see how it was both similar and different to ones he had encountered before. However, few students can do this and have to rely on brute-force memorization instead.</p>
<p>The two Physics C classes are easier, by contrast, IF you’re already good at calculus. My son taught himself the supplemental material he needed for the two Physics Cs tests in about a week and got 5’s on all three exams.</p>
<p>Because of the huge amount of material and its math intensity, the students who take AP Physics need to take a year of honors physics first. My son got a waiver for this requirement, but he was perhaps the only student in the school in at least 5 years to have done so. It didn’t hurt that he had already taken two college chemistry courses without previous chemistry experience and had gotten high A’s on both.</p>
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<p>Every top school in the country will allow you to skip the first two college physics classes with 5s in the two Physics Cs, even in engineering. Perhaps MIT and CalTech will also require you to take a placement test.</p>
<p>MIT accepts Calc BC and the 2 Physics C exams for credit. 
[MIT</a> Prospective Students: Advanced Placement, IB, and GCE A-Level Credit](<a href=“http://web.mit.edu/firstyear/prospective/ap/index.html]MIT”>http://web.mit.edu/firstyear/prospective/ap/index.html)
[MIT</a> Class of 2015: Advising and Academics - College Board Advanced Placement Credit](<a href=“http://mit.edu/firstyear/2015/subjects/ap.html]MIT”>http://mit.edu/firstyear/2015/subjects/ap.html)</p>
<p>CalTech grants no credit/placement for AP exams.
[Freshman</a> Applicants - Caltech Caltech Undergraduate Admissions](<a href=“http://www.admissions.caltech.edu/applying/freshman]Freshman”>http://www.admissions.caltech.edu/applying/freshman)</p>
<p>This is what your site on Caltech said</p>
<p>Caltech does not grant credit for AP, IB, or college courses taken prior to enrollment. Each student will take a math and physics placement exam (and chemistry if pursuing a chemistry option), prior to enrolling. Based on the results of these exams, a student may place out of courses and be granted credit for those courses.</p>
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This is absurd. Any Physics class in which memorization is the most difficult part bears little resemblance to actual college level Physics. Rigorous college Physics courses often allow students to bring in sheets of notes - but the problems are so difficult that students still struggle.</p>
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It appears that MIT will give credit for one semester of Freshman mechanics (Phys 8.01) for passing both sections of the Physics C exam. It places you in Phys 8.02 which is Freshman E&M. IMO that is the difficult part of first year calculus based Physics. Since Physics C supposedly includes E&M, it’s apparent they don’t hold that section of the exam in such high regard.</p>
<p>Just one addition - I find the Physics C exam to be a reasonably substantial exam. If a student earns a 5 on both sections of this exam (generally equivalent to a 60 or 70%) this is probably equivalent to a passing grade in one or possibly two quarters of a Freshman physics course at most places. </p>
<p>But a 5 on this exam, in and of itself, does not indicate mastery of the topic. There is no real way to tell the level of mastery of a student and whether they are truly ready for more advanced Physics merely from this exam. I got As and Bs in the “Freshman Physics for Physics majors” at my uni and wasn’t completely ready for the upper division courses. </p>
<p>But I agree with ucbalumnus on Physics B. I think at my alma mater they allowed students to use it to replace “Physics for Poets” or some such thing. I don’t even know why they have this exam.</p>
<p>There is a LOT of repetition in Math. I remember in middle school, we used an Algebra I textbook to cover 7th in 8th grade math in one year. And the only topics taught in my Algebra II class that weren’t taught in either Algebra I or Pre-Calculus was matrices, and that was just how to add, multiply, and find determinants. So basically, it’s not really that hard to be ahead by 2 or 3 years in math - I think anyone who is just above average and works at it could do so pretty easily.</p>
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<p>Actually, I think the situation with Physics C is that at MIT, Mechanics is taught based on calculus and vectors as it should be. But based on what I saw on CC, a lot AP Physics classes teach the Mechanics part of Physics C can without them, and it’s enough to get a 5. But it’s almost impossible to get away with that for E&M, so a 5 on that means you probably are familiar enough. And for E&M at MIT, there are a few new topics taught at MIT but are not covered in the AP test, but they’re pretty easy to learn. Otherwise, they’re pretty similar, and you can tell by the large passing rate on the standing exam for E&M.</p>
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<p>I don’t think CA changed its standards because they thought all 8th graders were ready for algebra. I believe they saw that there was a strong positive correlation between students who took algebra in 8th grade and students who went to college. Hmmm…if we just make sure all students take algebra in 8th grade…</p>
<p>This is another topic, but related.
I have found it fascinating to see the “arms race” in Math and Science which have numbered, sequenced courses. It gives aggressive students an opportunity to “advance.” They can excel not just in how high their grades are, or whether they take Honors or AP or BC version of a course, but by what level course they are taking. This, however, is not a possible route for the gifted English or History student- their only way to express focus and show talent and achievement is to reach for Honors or AP courses, IF offered. They cannot race ahead by starting the sequence of courses earlier or taking a course over the summer.
It seems unfair to me that some students can increase the rigor of their transcript in ways that that others with different talents cannot?
Do you think that students gifted in English and History are at a disadvantage to those gifted Science and Math in the college app process?</p>
<p>performersmom, I think that is only partly true. I realize there is not the same built in “accelerated” track so much for these other subjects like there is for math. But I can only share with you that my kids did accelerate in other subjects too, in order to meet their learning needs. We had to have accommodations put into place. </p>
<p>Both accelerated with some skipping in French starting in seventh grade. This was not the norm and special arrangements were put in place. Both finished the French curriculum in junior year with French V. D2 graduated after junior year but D1 had a two on one independent French VI in senior year created for them. </p>
<p>D2 had some accommodations in English/Writing as well. In 8th grade, she went into the high school (which is at the same location as the middle school here) to take Shakespeare (an English course) with the 12th graders and also Creative Writing with the 12th graders. She also took College Essay Writing in 8th grade through JHU/CTY long distance to supplement school English. I also recall in 8th grade, that she got to get out of some of English class (during a marking period) to do a much more in depth independent study related to their studies but not what the class was doing for assignments. Likewise, in 8th, for one marking period, she also was out of the class doing an independent study on the music of the 60’s in a historical context supervised by the head of the HS History department. </p>
<p>My kids also accelerated in math as I mentioned earlier on this thread. But we had some acceleration and other accomodations such as independent studies put into place in middle and high school to meet their learning needs. They did a lot of that in our elem. school as well. For example, D2 was taken out of all spelling classes starting in third grade and when the entire school went to spelling, she was writing musical scripts supervised by the principal (because they did not feel she needed any spelling as she spelled like an adult). As an aside, I should go back and thank them as this week, my D’s original musical is being produced professionally in NYC (she’s now 22), and the seeds of this type of endeavor were allowed at our elementary school. In the middle and high school, we had to advocate on their behalf, but our elementary school individualized and accelerated in all subjects. </p>
<p>I agree that there is no formal acceleration “track” like in math, but on an individual basis, acceleration was put into place for both my kids in several subjects (and for that matter, across the board as D2 was granted early entrance into K and also graduated HS after junior year which is another form of acceleration).</p>
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<p>MIT gives credit only for 8.01 for a 5 on both parts of AP Physics C, based on the link posted above. 8.01 is the first semester mechanics course. Students then have to take 8.02 for electricity and magnetism.</p>
<p>UC Berkeley gives [no</a> subject credit for AP Physics C if you are a physics major, although taking Physics H7A,H7B,H7C (honors) instead of 7A,7B,7C is suggested.](<a href=“Home | Physics”>Home | Physics). Engineering majors can use a 5 on AP Physics C Mechanics for Physics 7A only – no subject credit for AP Physics C Electricity and Magnetism (Physics 7A covers mechanics while Physics 7B covers electricity and magnetism as well as thermodynamics).</p>
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<p>Back in the dark ages when I was in high school, the AP courses offered were:</p>
<p>English (preparation for AP English Literature test; mostly students who had taken honors English the previous years)
US History (preparation for AP US History test)
Calculus (preparation for AP Calculus BC test; a few years later an AB course was added; at that time, it was pretty much all seniors who were one year ahead in math, most of whom took honor math the previous years)
Chemistry (preparation for AP Chemistry test; this was a one semester add-on after the student completed regular high school chemistry)
Also, students in the fourth year of French or Spanish sometimes took the AP tests (and probably native or heritage speakers of the languages also took them).</p>
<p>AP English Literature does appear to be fairly commonly accepted for at least part of the writing course requirements at many universities.</p>
<p>Of course, now many schools offer several other kinds of AP History (World, European, Art) as well. Not to mention other AP tests like Economics, Psychology, Music Theory, US Government and Politics, more languages and literature. So there is at least theoretically the possibility of taking many courses of university freshman level humanities and social studies courses through AP tests.</p>
<p>However, in practice, the AP tests may not be accepted. For example, UC Berkeley’s History department does not accept any AP History test in lieu of a freshman level history course for history majors.</p>
<p>But note that many humanities and social studies majors do not have as long chains of prerequisites to the major. For example, physics and engineering majors at UC Berkeley who start without AP or other calculus credit have a three or four semester long sequence of math and physics courses to take before doing junior or senior level courses in their major. AP or other calculus credit can give a bit more “breathing room” in the schedule, especially if a student has difficulty getting a needed course one semester due to time conflict or whatever.</p>
<p>In contrast, a history major has four freshman or sophomore level history courses needed before declaring the major, but none has any prerequisites, so they may be taken in any order at any time during the freshman and sophomore years. So there may be less “need” for a history major to be “ahead” via AP credit. Note that even many of the junior and senior level history courses list no prerequisites. An even better example is that the linguistics major has no freshman and sophomore level prerequisite courses, although one junior level course that is a prerequisite to several others can be taken in freshman or sophomore years since it has no prerequisites.</p>
<p>UChicago will give three quarters of credit for the Physics 12000 series for a double 5 on Physics C. Anything less on both exams and it’s two quarters. The Physics 12000 series will fulfill the physical sciences requirement for say, a math major, but cannot be applied as credit towards a physics major.</p>
<p>S1 took what was called mathematical physics senior year at his HS. It was UMD’s first year physics sequence for physics majors (used the same books, etc.). Strongly preferred pre-req was MV/DiffEq, though one could take it concurrently and have a tougher time. Took the Physics C exam at the end of the year. </p>
<p>Re: history/English acceleration – S2 attended a GT humanities program for middle school, and then did IB in HS. This particular school’s strength in IB were the English and Social Studies courses, so it worked out well for him.</p>
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<p>Aren’t we nitpicking here? Virtually every school in the country, including the Ivies, will give you full college credit for 4s or 5s on these APs. The thousand wiz kids nationwide, out of a million+ students, who get into MIT and CalTech have almost certainly ALL had this material, so one would figure that they wouldn’t get very much credit for what amounts to an almost universal starting point.</p>
<p>Many colleges don’t give credit for all AP classes. There are maximum of allowable credits. Some colleges strictly require AP score of 5 to have credit. Ex:</p>
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<p>[Advanced</a> Standing: Course Equivalencies](<a href=“http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~advising/advanced/equivs.html]Advanced”>http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~advising/advanced/equivs.html)</p>
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<p><a href=“http://mit.edu/firstyear/2015/subjects/ap.html#bio[/url]”>http://mit.edu/firstyear/2015/subjects/ap.html#bio</a></p>