When did it become common for high school students to be 2-3 grades ahead in math?

Parents Forum
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<p>When I was in high school, most students, including those going to good four year universities, took the normal math sequence ending with precalculus math in senior year. A small percentage were one grade level ahead, ending with calculus in senior year (it was taught to the AP BC curriculum, and students often did get 5 on the BC test). Every few years, there would be a student who was two grade levels ahead, taking calculus in junior year. Some time after I graduated, a modestly greater number of students took calculus in senior year, resulting in adding a second calculus course (taught to the AP AB curriculum, so that students had a choice of AB or BC).</p>

<p>Now, based on postings here and what I have seen from younger relatives now in high school, it seems that a much larger percentage of high school students is at least one year ahead, and being two years ahead is not unusual. And it seems to be not that rare for students to be three grades ahead in math, taking calculus in sophomore year.</p>

<p>But from the postings here, it also seems that it is now common to not offer a one year calculus course taught to the BC curriculum, instead requiring a year of AB followed by BC the next year. This seems to be at odds with the idea that more students are being recognized for their math abilities -- shouldn't students two (or three) grade levels ahead be the ones best able to handle a one year BC course instead of stretching it out over two years?</p>

<p>Or is the increasing trend of high school students being two or three grade levels ahead in math being pushed by parents and schools more than the students themselves? I.e. instead of recognizing that a few students are great at math and letting them move two or three grade levels ahead (while allowing those who are merely good move one grade level ahead), more students who are good, but not great, at math are being pushed two grade levels ahead even though they may do better at one grade level ahead. If that is the case, it would be more consistent with the trend to forcing all calculus students to do it over two years instead of offering a one year BC course.</p>

<p>Any thoughts?</p>

2

<p>One thing that has changed is that 6th graders in many communities are in middle schools, rather than in elementary schools. When I was in 6th grade in an elementary school, we all did 6th grade math. In Junior High, we were tracked, so some 7th graders were identified as being ready for Pre-Algebra. For my daughters, they were placed into Pre-Algebra as 6th graders in middle school, which meant that they did Calculus as juniors in high school, not seniors.
Since then, the middle school has let some math whiz kids skip a year of math by testing out of it, so those kids are doing Calculus as sophomores. I’m not sure that that’s a huge benefit though, because they run out of math classes to take.</p>

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<p>If there is one idea I will never get behind, it is the idea that we’re pushing kids to do too much math.</p>

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<p>Welcome to Kumon Nation!</p>

5

<p>I think there are more options out there now: community college, Russian Math, Kumon, elite math clubs etc that most folks in my community would not pay for back when I was a kid. And public schools are offering more. But,in general, I think most kids follow the same track we did. I was given a “heads up” by a parent of an older kid to keep my eye on the track my S was placed in during middle school. There were limited places for the fast track. My S will “only” have finished BC when he graduates, but he wouldn’t be there if I hadn’t been made aware of the tracking happening in middle school and pushed to have S in the faster track. he is a math/science kid, not a humanities kid. I never would have pushed back in middle school if he didn’t have an aptitude for it.</p>

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<p>My (public) high school had one tracked math class starting in sixth grade that was two years above grade level – algebra in 7th, geometry in eighth, leading to calculus junior year of high school. This was one class of maybe 20 students in a year of about 150. There were also probably two classes of students at the one-year advanced level. Students who were taking higher math than that were few and far between, and incredibly brilliant. For example, the school might allow a student to take calculus and pre-calculus at the same time, but I think they were out of calculus if their average dropped below an A in either class, so they really had to be extremely prepared. We also had a university right by the high school, so when someone took calc early, they had a way to continue.</p>

<p>I will say that I don’t think this system leaves much room for parental pressure. The advanced classes are hard, and they teach pre-calc as one of the hardest math classes in the school, with only students with a B average or better going on to calculus. If someone isn’t math-driven or internally motivated towards that, I don’t think they’d do that well.</p>

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<p>My D, currently a senior, started in a school district that gave all 6th graders a math test, basically to see if their curriculum and teaching was working and to know how to place the kids in Jr. High math. </p>

<p>Out of about 300 students, approximately 20-25 were invited to take Algebra 1 as a 7th grader. The kids were not pressured to take it and it was entirely up to the student and parent(s) to decide. The students that tool Algebra 1 as 7th graders took Algebra 2 as 8th graders because that is what the Jr. high teacher was comfortable teaching. Students (and parents) could decide at any time before 9th grade to drop the math class and to either retake the previous years math or to go back a step. So, 9th graders could repeat Alg. 2, but once they got to 10th grade they could not repeat geometry without penalty.</p>

<p>My D took Alg. 1 in 7th grade, followed the sequence with all A’s, and moved to a different high school starting in 10th grade. The new high school is generally considered a better high school, but didn’t even offer Alg. 1 to 8th graders, so she was two years ahead of all of her classmates. They were allowed to double up Alg. 2 and geometry, so there are a few that take calc as a senior. She took calc as a Junior and had no more math to take this year. At the school she started at, there were 2 years of calc offered and she would have taken both. Her counselor offered to pay for a community college class, but that would have taken two class periods and D could not afford to lose the extra class, so she is without math this year.</p>

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<p>I think it’s healthy that middle schools are allowing kids to move forward at their own pace.Our school tests the kids and gives those that achieve at a specific point the option to jump ahead. I think it’s unhealthy when families feel “forced” in some way to push kids. My S1 took the fast track and is not a “mathy” person. I encouraged him to do this. I do not think it benefited him in the long run (looking back). He would have been far happier with more advanced literature and writing options than math options and schools seem over focused on math/science these days IMHO. For the next two I kept my lips zipped and let them set their own pace. One pushed forward and one did not.</p>

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<p>The availability of materials in the last twenty years has made it easier for kids that are interested in math, to pursue that interest at younger ages.</p>

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<p>I know what happened in our school system, because my older son was on the cusp of the changeover. There was a sudden realization that instead of 15% of kids doing high school level math in 8th grade they overnight stuck twice as many kids in the class and discovered that there was really no drop off in how kids did in the class. I think the pressure was coming from above to make our school system look more high performing and also from parents who thought their kids could handle algebra (or Math A at the time) and had been closed out of the class. Meanwhile my son had been working on his own on EPGY in 5th grade, because he was bored out of his mind in elementary school math. In the spring of his 5th grade year I went to the school and asked for more than the standard 6th grade honors math. I got the brush off, but I kept pushing. I knew of ONE kid who’d been double accelerated before. Finally in the fall of 6th grade after classes had started we made an agreement that he would take a final exam and if he knew the material he could skip the class. They ended up giving him a 7th grade final - he got a B - and they put him in a 7th grade honors class. (Which was boring since he knew 80% of the material, but I was tired of fighting.) But then an interesting thing happened. I ran into a friend at a party who was talking about how bored her daughter was in math and I told her what we had done. Next thing I know her daughter is in the class too. Then I get a call from another parent whose son had been in a private school and also wanted acceleration. So there ended up being three of them. We had to carpool them to the high school when they were in 8th grade. While they were in high school another group of good math students wanted to join them and they all too Pre-calc in summer school - so there was a small group of juniors taking Calc BC in older son’s class whereas before there had been only the one student that I know of. There were enough of them to offer a post Calc BC class senior year.</p>

<p>The middle school is still pretty anti-acceleration, but the high school never makes any issues about it with bright students. My oldest was really a math nerd and acceleration kept him happy. My younger son did fine with the standard acceleration and took BC Calc as a senior as did I and my husband.</p>

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<p>The path of math goes arithmetic, algebra, geometry, precalculus, calculus. You can teach a lot of the ideas of algebra, geometry, precalculus and calculus to elementary-age kids. The parts that require arithmetic computations may be hard to do but these can be worked around. There are other areas of mathematics that can be introduced early on.</p>

<p>This sort of thing is best done informally though - no textbooks, lesson plans, etc. Perhaps chatting in the car, or illustrating ideas on a whiteboard, or something out of a puzzle book.</p>

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<p>My S1 started sixth grade in 1998. That seemed to be the year around here that the accelerated math track really got a big push. He did PreAlgebra in 6th, Alg.1 in 7th and Geom. in 8th grades. He finished Calc. by Junior year in h.s. </p>

<p>This worked out great for him but some students that started on that track in sixth grade hit a wall after Honors Pre-Cal in 10th grade and had to search for other math classes to fulfill our high school’s “four years of h.s. math to graduate” requirement.</p>

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<p>My D was able to take some advanced math classes during the summers and ended up being placed in Calc her freshman year (kind of freaked us out). She did great- keeping an A all year but we felt she wasn’t ready to take a college calc II when she was a sophomore so she ended up taking AP Stats. She enrolled in CalcII at the local community college at night her Jr year (definitely interesting because most students were adults and she was just 16) She did fine but had a very difficult time balancing 6 courses in high school, cheerleading, track, NHS, etc. We made the decision to not have her continue to take the Calc sequence and she is not taking any math this year. She is currently in 6 honors/AP courses in high school. and looking forward to college. She is planning on majoring in Math and would eventually like to do research and teach at the college level. She just found out that she will be able to take Honors Calc at her U and it will count for both Calc I and II. She loves Calc and doesn’t mind retaking the courses because she was unsure of the quality of the courses she already took and thinks she might be a little rusty. (Luckily she got a full academic scholarship so tuition is not really an issue). </p>

<p>I think for some kids taking advanced math is great but not all kids develop at the same rate. Parents should keep in mind the strengths and weaknesses of their child. Pushing them ahead before they are ready is most likely a recipe for disaster</p>

14

<p>somebody should send this thread to our public HS district superintendent…the tippy top of our HS students are only 1 yr ahead in math according to this…and that calculates to “maybe” 20 kids out of 300…</p>

<p>wow, wonder if they realize that is one of the reasons only a couple of kids are admitted into top schools…</p>

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<p>This is an interesting thread. I never realized the differences resulting from the placement of 6th grade. Our district still has 6th grade in the elementary school with only one general math class. The earliest that any kid can take Algebra I is 8th grade, which means 9th - Geometry, 10th - Alg II, 11th - PreCalc, 12th - Calc BC (optional). But our kids still have to compete for college slots with all those other advanced kids. I guess it is true that ad com’s look at the school profile and take that into account, as our top kids don’t seem to have much trouble getting into top schools.</p>

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<p>^^megpmom: what % of the graduating class is taking the route you describe above though? If you define your “top kids” as only 10-15 kids, and you are ok with that, that’s fine…</p>

<p>But when the majority of the country is completing Calculus (at all levels) in 12th grade, but only a small minority is completing it at your HS, that really leaves those kids with an admissions deficit, even if they adcoms do look at the school profile; that profile does not explain “how few” kids are “ahead” in math…(although now it looks as though even the kids who are considered ahead are, in fact, behind)</p>

<p>both my kids are out of the HS now, but this has been a 20 yr long discussion in our town…parents have been pushing for change, literally, for almost two generations…</p>

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<p>Keep in mind that our district is very diverse. 70% minority, and about 40% limited English proficiency. Out of my D’s graduating class of 400, I would say about 40 finished calculus (10%). My D was one of those who opted out of Calculus and did AP Stats instead. Admittedly, the kids who finished calculus were the ones who were accepted at Ivies, but even some of the kids who opted out did pretty well (Rice, Boston U, American, Carnegie Mellon, etc.) We’re in TX, and our top 10% are guaranteed admission at UT Austin and Texas A&M - so we have very few kids that go to privates, all things considered.</p>

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<p>From 4-8 grade I was in the Advanced Learning Program for very gifted children. There was a class of about 25 students from the whole town, but the program was only offered at one school pathway (had to go to a certain elementary, then middle school). </p>

<p>We were one science class ahead (it’s common in HS) and two math classes ahead (not so common).
I’m in 11th grade and taking Calc AB. there’s one girl who went through the program who is a sophomore now and is in my Calc class (slightly jealous of her :P). </p>

<p>It’s not like I had a choice, but I like being ahead because it gives me^^ an edge, and I was able to discover that I love Math and I’m going for computer science in college. </p>

<p>It being more common is a good thing, I’m glad people are ahead, but it does feel good to be one of 4 juniors taking Calc ab :D</p>

<p>Next year the pre Calc kids are being sent to Calc bc which I don’t think is fair but what can I do</p>

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<p>I don’t see that trend at all with my kids having gone and going to public, catholic and religious schools, all considered college prep and highly ranked in terms of perecentage of kids going to selective schools. </p>

<p>Most kids in the above scenarios take Calculus by senior year. They tend to be in Honors Math in 8th grade which usually covers Algebra I in the traditional high school sequence though some schools use an integrated math program which makes it more difficult to pinpoint where the kids are in the old AlgI, Geom,Alg2, PreCalc, Calc sequence. Pre Calculus ends up being the catch all to make sure that the kids have their full two years of Algebra tenets along with Plane and Analytic Geometry and Trigonometry, though some of that also occurs in in Alg 2. It is tough when kids change the type of sequencing from one school to another because there are those differences.</p>

<p>But the goal is to have a full 50% or the class taking Calculus by Senior year with the ones who look like they can handle the AP exam taking AP Calc and the others taking some regular Calculus course with the advice to retake Calc in college. Those who get a score that is acceptable to the college of their choices can get up to 2 semesters of Calculus 1 and 2 credit and will resume math at the Calculus 3 (Vector Calculus) level followed by Linear Algebra. Once that critical mass of math courses has been completed, kids can pretty much take anything in undergraduate pure mathematics courses. That is the classic foundation.</p>

<p>There are kids who take extra calc or are in advanced Precalc courses that cover Calc 1 or (Calc A if using AP designation) which is traditionally Differential Calculus. Those kids who are totally ready to go directly int Calc 2 (or B), Integral Calculus can take the Calculus BC course. This is often what the difference is between Honors and Regular Precalc. The Regular is a catch all to prepare a kid for CalcAB and the other will cover the CalcA after a brief review and those kids can go on to AP CalcBC if they do well enough in that honors Precalc course. At my sons’ schools about half go on to Calc BC in a good year. It is not recommended to take Calc BC unless you are truly prepared to take it. Taught properly it is a GPA buster of a course, and most selective colleges do recognize that and will even forgive a C in this course, the only concession I have seen them make in writing. But it still is not something most schools want to see happen since a C in Calc BC usually means the kid is going to have to repeat the Calc C (Calc 3 or Vector Calculus in most college catalogs) in college, and is not going to score a 4 or 5 on the AP test. Few kids I know skip that Calc 3 in college. Even if they do well on the AP Calc BC test, if they are going into heavy duty math curriculums in college that have a rigorous math departement, and almost certainly for pure math theory majors, the math department is going to want the kid to take the Calc 3 course in house. Mainly because of the theory that is in the college courses that is almost always skipped in the high school BC math course and is not heavily covered on the AP exam so that it is possible to 5 the exam and still not get all of that theory that is essential for a strong foundation in theoretical mathematics. </p>

<p>Those kids who are not math wired or come from schools that did not have advanced math programs are usually put into a catch up sequence in math at college prep high schools and if they are willing to work hard at it or take an extra course in the summer, can end up in Calculus by senior year. However, it is not that big of a deal to be in Pre Calc or Statistics or another form of non calculus math for that 4th year. But taking BC Calculus and acing it first term is a big achievement if the student is in a school with a demonstrated strong BC Calculus course that has proven high AP test scores for their kids with nearly everyone taking the course taking the test.</p>

<p>A lot of kids take a course that is labeled Calculus in high shcool but does not adequately cover the material in the subject for them to skip over the course and go onto Calc 3 and Linear Algebra in college. Those kids are usually funneled into regular college Calc 1 and 2 classes, and even at the college level they may be construed for the Math majors (including those who are Science, Engineering, Computer, Premed) and for the Non Math majors (business, social sciences). Our local SUNY very neatly has this compartmentalization for Calculus and Statistics courses. Those who take the courses as terminal ones take one track; those who intend to take courses based on these take another.</p>

<p>When you get a junior in high school who is ready to take calculus but needs that differntial calculus, there is really no choice but to put him/her into Calc AB at best unless that student took a Calc 1 course at community college over the summer or in some summer program or self studied the material. The student can be well versed in all the precalc stuff like trig, and analytic geometry, but if the precalc course did not adequately cover Calc 1 and most of them in most schools do not, then the student has to take Calc AB since the A part of the Calcu is essential to the B.
Upon completion of that course, in senior year, the school either has run out of math courses for the student, channels the student to a non Calc course like Statistics or AP Econ, recommends the student take Calc 3 at a local community college, or takes the Calc BC course if offered at the school. Yes, the Calc BC does review the Calc B part of the Calc AB course, but it is truly not an easy subject to master, and most of the course, if taught with an eye to advanced math in college will emphasize the Calc C even with the knowledge that most of the kids will be repeating Calc 3 in college if going on in a math related field. The student has the bonus of getting a good grade in Calc BC which is truly not an easy thing to do if the previous calc course was well taught and s/he works at it.</p>

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<p>I disagree that this is a new concept. I graduated high school in 1982 and my senior year math class was calculus. I was on the honors math & science track, but I wasn’t a brilliant math student. And this wasn’t AP either. Probably about 10% of my graduating class took this path (my class had 750 kids.) </p>

<p>My kids took the same sequence of math that I did but D1 chose to take AP statistics as a senior instead of calc (she’s a history major in college and figured it would be more useful) and D2 will probably do the same. They weren’t the uber accelerated math kids (they’re the 2nd highest group.)</p>