<p>My roof just sprung a leak. Really.</p>
<p>I didn’t say it was awful; I said “your words may haunt/bite you”. Most pregnancies aren’t planned . Most people have trouble planning 24 years into their financial future. And if you haven’t noticed, I think most CC parents waited to have kids and that’s why we have to budget for college funds and imminent retirement at the same time.</p>
<p>^^^My last roof cost 6K. There goes the book budget for all four years. So sorry to hear that.</p>
<p>Let’s make it very clear that most students do not have in state access to UC’s. So the point about UC’s not being chopped liver is moot. Of course they aren’t. They are great schools. But TONS of kids live in states with not very good or just okay public schools. And on another note, a giant 30k student school is not a good choice for everyone. </p>
<p>Furthermore, in 1978, college was a much different thing. For one thing, it was much less expensive and you could work your way through it. For another, not everyone went to college in 1978. Now, college is the new high school. Graduate school has become the new college. You have to go to college (or some kind of vocational training beyond high school) to get a decent job.</p>
<p>“in 1978, college was a much different thing. For one thing, it was much less expensive and you could work your way through it”</p>
<p>I got that, and the part about the UC’s. Can I complain about taxes and average home prices of 500k? Aww man… anyway… I am really asking. When did this happen? How do we make this transition?</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, I just want to point out that when you compared my $100,00 debt to your husbands, you failed to see that there are obviously differences between $100,000 debt with an MD and $100,000 with a BA.</p>
<p>MLEVINE, I’m sorry if I missed it, but did your parents refuse to pay for UMass?</p>
<p>Okay… but 100K 20 years ago was a lot more than it is now.I must admit I’ve lost track of my point but I sure don’t wish 100k of debt on a student.</p>
<p>They won’t pay for any college regardless of what school it is. They might give me $5K a year, but that’s not even definite.</p>
<p>Opie ofMaybery2:</p>
<p>"I love debates with people who believe that “tough sh1t” is an adequate answer. "</p>
<p>sometimes I add an “awww” in front of it, if that helps..</p>
<p>“that’s how some people are sunshine.”
What does that mean? That some people are offensive?"</p>
<p>Well gee, I can think of one right now…
</p>
<p>"Sooo, why exactly is your opinion magically so superior? I see the situation from adult eyes also. I am in my twenties (Voila! Adult eyes!). "</p>
<p>You may be in your 20’s but your far from adult…one’s a calender age, the other involves experience and understanding.</p>
<p>“stuf happens, you either sit and whine about it or you get up dust yourself off and make the best of it.”</p>
<p>“Who said that we weren’t doing that? My life has been pretty tough.”</p>
<p>aww does somebody need a hug or a burp? </p>
<p>"Maybe not kid in Somalia tough, but tough enough that how I turned out surprises and inspires people who know my story. I’ve dusted myself off. I’ve worked hard. Does that mean that my experiences were any less disturbing? Does that mean that my parents weren’t wrong? I certainly hope that you aren’t a teacher or counsellor. I can imagine it now: “Yeah, well, your parents were crazy and neglectful, but don’t be annoyed about it. Stop your whining and make some frickin lemonade.” </p>
<p>pretty much… you and some others like as if bad stuff only happens to you. Just a bunch of emo kids… </p>
<p>Look you want me to feel for you cause mommy and daddy didn’t love you? Sorry, but I can understand why pretty quickly…</p>
<p>Let me ask you this, if your folks are like these people you’ve described, why are you worried about anything they bring to the party? move on, get your degree, get your life, get your own family and break the cycle… </p>
<p>Basically if my parents treated me like dirt, I wouldn’t care, cause I’d be gone. I wouldn’t whine mommy doesn’t love me, mommy wouldn’t be able to find me… If you have such a coincedential relationship with your folks, why are you even the slightest concerned about them? Isn’t that just wasting your time? </p>
<p>Don’t assume people aren’t concerned about situations, but that’s somebody else’s business. Why does anybody need your approval for their actions or inactions?</p>
<p>“Furthermore, in 1978, college was a much different thing. For one thing, it was much less expensive and you could work your way through it.”</p>
<p>How old were you in 78 to decide what was and wasn’t expensive? College has always been expensive, always. I attended college in those years and it seemed pretty damed expensive to me. the bookstore still killed you with textbook prices. It wasn’t cheap. It was a choice. While buds were going to haiwaii or cabo, I was working. While buds were skiing every weekend, I was working…my choice, cause I wanted that degree. I wanted one, I found a way. </p>
<p>To my emo kids… ya know who you are…</p>
<p>You guys want a degree, but only under certain condititons or terms. Sometimes it just doesn’t work that way. So you either try and make the best of it or you quit… lotsa folks quit.</p>
<p>It’s far easier. I guess I could have blamed my parent cause she was poor, a mother of four, but she was working 6 days a week to feed us and keep us from being put out on the street… yea, I see it now it’s all her fault.. her four ended up with one having a masters, another a phd, another a bs plus, and one a semester shy of his bs. And that’s off the government cheese before aid was the GI bill and that’s it, cause folks like us just didn’t get no education…</p>
<p>So you kids with your ipods, xboxes and so on, will forgive me, for telling you to try harder if you’re dealt a setback and that you guys can make it… Sometimes I forget this generation needs counsuling cause mommy won’t buy them Halo 3, so they are stuck with old Halo 2… “yea mister, I’ve dealt with adversity…” no, chances are you haven’t or you wouldn’t be in such a rush to tell people about it…</p>
<p>Mlevine,</p>
<p>It appears that you do have a few options, none of them your ideal, but certainly not the end of the world either. You can get a job and work until age 24, then go to college using your own income for FA; you can work part time to pay for community college, earn great grades and get merit aid at a u. for the last 2 years; or you can go ahead and take out the $100k loan (if in fact it is available to you.) Obviously, the loan will impact your disposable income, but only for 10 years and you will have your degree. You just need to pick a path and go for it. A lot will happen in the next 10 years of your life - maybe you’ll win the lottery or marry a millionaire or something will happen to your parents and you will have access to your inheritance sooner than you expect!</p>
<p>I believe we must have stumbled into the internet home of the Melendez brothers.</p>
<p>OpieofMaybery2:</p>
<p>Clearly you are not an adult if you list “understanding” as a requirement for adulthood. My posts were made because although my situation isn’t exactly the same (payment for college isn’t an issue), I understand that situations are very different for some. Experience makes an adult. I have had enough experiences to know that family can deeply influence a person. I don’t cry to mommy or daddy, but I’m aware enough to know that those relationships affect me and others’ similar relationships (or lack thereof) can affect them also. I think that you lack empathy in a major way. A sarcastic “aww does somebody need a hug or a burp?” is inappropriate when a person admits that her life has been difficult. I am perfectly aware that I haven’t had the worst life. I have had many opportunities for which I am thankful, many which aren’t available for a good percentage of this world’s population. HOWEVER, I will not minimize my experiences either. You don’t know my life, but you are either lacking in perception or in empathy to comment so quickly on how superficial you believe them to have been. I believe in Karma, so I certainly hope that you open your eyes and similar circumstances don’t befall you or your children.</p>
<p>“you and some others like as if bad stuff only happens to you. Just a bunch of emo kids…”</p>
<p>“Emo” implies that the person is overreacting and playing into the drama. I don’t believe that this is the case. I can’t speak for the other posters, but I know plenty of kids who have lived lives that seemed impossible even before they were legal. Stepping beyond torture, rape, incest, domestic violence, etc., I’ll just explain that even these “little” mommy and daddy issues cause LOTS of problems. Mom and Dad are the first step for self-esteem. Read a frickin psych textbook or developmental psych articles. You seem very bitter, so I’m sure that you have your own issues, but you are wrong, nonetheless. The kids who are upset in response to neglect are usually not overreacting. And often a good chunk of them don’t even discuss, let alone make a huge drama of it, so “emo” just doesn’t fit.</p>
<p>Bad stuff doesn’t just happen to us. That doesn’t mean that the bad stuff shouldn’t upset us. It would be an illogical reaction to feel no anger in response to bad stuff. Again, please review your psych.</p>
<p>Additionally, your very cruel and immature blow of* “Look you want me to feel for you cause mommy and daddy didn’t love you? Sorry, but I can understand why pretty quickly…”* only shows your lack of empathy and education. Also, you’re implying that as a child I had some control over their abilities to love their own child. I don’t believe that any toddler has that power. Clearly, your comment, which is illogical in that sense, was just made in an attempt to hurt me.</p>
<p>“Let me ask you this, if your folks are like these people you’ve described, why are you worried about anything they bring to the party? move on, get your degree, get your life, get your own family and break the cycle…”</p>
<p>I won’t explain my complicated history to you or why my decision is best for me. My life isn’t as black and white as you want to believe. And I don’t know why I need to keep saying it, but I **am **getting my degree, living my life, “sucking it up,” breaking the cycle, etc., but that doesn’t make things any less messed up.</p>
<p>“Basically if my parents treated me like dirt, I wouldn’t care, cause I’d be gone.”</p>
<p>That is nice. And your circumstance could make that the best option. My circumstance doesn’t. Do you want a memoir? </p>
<p>“Why does anybody need your approval for their actions or inactions?”</p>
<p>Cool. I’ll go tell all those child case workers helping kids all over to back off. Where is the line? Go ahead and be an enabler. I’m sure that you’ll feel great about your ability to MYOB.</p>
<p>“So you kids with your ipods, xboxes and so on, will forgive me, for telling you to try harder if you’re dealt a setback and that you guys can make it… Sometimes I forget this generation needs counsuling cause mommy won’t buy them Halo 3, so they are stuck with old Halo 2… “yea mister, I’ve dealt with adversity…” no, chances are you haven’t or you wouldn’t be in such a rush to tell people about it…”</p>
<p>Awesome. Congrats for grouping the youth of America yet again. Obviously because you were poor, there are no kids here who have dealt with a lot. And clearly, the rich kids who dealt with a lot are the ones who REALLY didn’t face adversity. I’ll be sure to tell my rich friend who was raped by her brother that she didn’t face any adversity. BTW, she has told others about her experience. “Chances are you haven’t or you wouldn’t be in such a rush to tell people about it”… Really? I guess you are right and her life was wonderful. Alice Sebold published* Lucky *about her rape. I guess her life rocked also because she felt the need to share her experience.</p>
<p>Grow up. Mansions can sometimes hide more. Try convincing a poor cop that your dad is molesting you in your million dollar home. See how fast he comes to your rescue. </p>
<p>BTW, just because a parent is rich, doesn’t mean that the kid gets ANY benefits. A kid can starve in a rich neighborhood because the parent is neglectful. I’ve never had a manicure, never bought expensive jeans, never been given an ipod or expensive gift by my parents. I did, however, become sicker with a personal illness (as a minor) because my dad would rather buy two expensive cars than help me out with paying for the supplements I needed. Stuff like that, only the icing (I won’t discuss the rest), Opie, messes with a kid. Your mom had a rough life and so did you, but don’t assume that my life was so much better and label me a drama queen. At least your mom tried (based on how you explained it).</p>
<p>Aw ya sure ya don’t need a hug? </p>
<p>typical and timeless… </p>
<p>“was just made in an attempt to hurt me.”</p>
<p>actually moreso for giggles, It’s always tough to hear kids that are well off complain…cause there’s far worse situations out there… </p>
<p>“doesn’t mean that the kid gets ANY benefits”</p>
<p>You don’t skip any meals cause there’s no food do you? What are the labels on your clothes? Do you have a car? Ever had to sleep in the street, cause you had no home? Ever fear that the gang outside your house prowling your garage will come into the house? Ever be the kid, other people gave money to go to camp? Only to be beaten up by much older kids while you’re there? yea, you’ve got it rough..</p>
<p>I have empathy for kids with real problems, I really do… you don’t have real problems just inconviences. I bet if we truly compared ya might be surprized. If your dad is really as bad as you say, drop him out of your life asap…</p>
<p>you have two choices really about these kind of situations either you make it different or you live with it. Sure it messes with you, life messes with you. Ya deal…</p>
<p>As bad as your life is, I’d bet you wouldn’t trade with me.. There’s a difference between nothing to eat and having no food in the house… you’re right it does mess with you… I’m an excellent cook and I have a pantry that would make a mormon blush…too many hungry nights as a child. So you will forgive me dearheart but, you aren’t the first and you definately won’t be the last that life somehow shorts… </p>
<p>I’m honestly sorry for your situation… as my peace offering I hope that you are able to learn from the wrongs in your life, so when it’s your turn you can do it differently and start something new, rather than repeat the cycle.. good luck</p>
<p>Opie:</p>
<p>You are a model person. You make hurtful comments for giggles. Wow, I hope that I can be just as mature as you when I grow up. /sarcasm</p>
<p>“cause there’s far worse situations out there…”</p>
<p>Pretty sure I already said that.</p>
<p>“You don’t skip any meals cause there’s no food do you?”</p>
<p>Weren’t you paying attention? YES. I needed supplements (couldn’t eat hard food because of the sickness) for a long while and therefore didn’t get “food.” No, our house wasn’t completely bare of ANYTHING at any time, but I’ve starved for different reasons. </p>
<p>“What are the labels on your clothes?”</p>
<p>Crap labels, and lately hand-me-downs because I can’t afford winter clothes (not my size, if that matters to you). As I mentioned, I don’t buy expensive clothes because I am not rich, my parents (specifically my dad) are. </p>
<p>“Do you have a car?”</p>
<p>I am 22, and only received a car this year in an area where it is highly necessary. Believe me when I say that gifts are not usual. I am grateful for it, but (not that you’ll care) there was a complicated story behind it. To brush on it, the car was not given for my benefit. I wasn’t even able to get my permit for many years because my crazy mom withheld the paperwork I needed (and then tormented me because I couldn’t drive, even though she wouldn’t give the only thing that I was asking of her–the paperwork). After my irresponsible bro had several crashes and totalled two cars (pen1s = cars, in my family), and my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer, they got me the car. I’m thankful, but honestly, it was more a gift to themselves. My parents are senior citizen age and not in good health so it wasn’t like they could do everything. I likely won’t even have it soon. Even I feel like I’m whining now, because I really am thankful for the car, but it wasn’t a straight-out thing like some would think. </p>
<p>“Ever had to sleep in the street, cause you had no home?”</p>
<p>I had to sleep in worse places than the street.</p>
<p>“Ever fear that the gang outside your house prowling your garage will come into the house?”</p>
<p>No, but it is more screwed up when you fear the people who live in the house, IMO.</p>
<p>“Ever be the kid, other people gave money to go to camp? Only to be beaten up by much older kids while you’re there?”</p>
<p>I didn’t GET the chance to go to camp. No strangers showed me such kindness because they, like you, only saw a big house. Do you feel better if I admit that I was beaten up at home? Camp is a temporary situation (though I’m still sorry that that happened), so I don’t feel that that situation was worse at all. I would have preferred that, actually. </p>
<p>“you don’t have real problems just inconviences.”</p>
<p>Oh yeah. Because abuse is inconvenience. Either you are blind or ignorant, Opie. I alluded to what happened in my life pretty strongly, so either you aren’t very perceptive, or you wrongly believe that abuse in a rich family is minor. Abused kids, rich or poor, are anything but “well off.”</p>
<p>“I bet if we truly compared ya might be surprized.”</p>
<p>You have HUGE issues.</p>
<p>“If your dad is really as bad as you say, drop him out of your life asap…”</p>
<p>I am leaving for college soon, not that it is your business. Even if I wasn’t leaving, it would not necessarily be best for me to simply run away. Again, my life isn’t black and white. </p>
<p>“you have two choices really about these kind of situations either you make it different or you live with it.” </p>
<p>Um, you again assume that I am not making things different just because my decisions don’t fall into your box. </p>
<p>“As bad as your life is, I’d bet you wouldn’t trade with me..”</p>
<p><em>was</em>. I never said <em>is</em> (the is isn’t great, but my past was on another level). Also, your past doesn’t shock me. It is sad that it happened, but everything you said about your past sounds better than mine from my perspective. I won’t play this “who was hurt more” game anymore though. It is sick.</p>
<p>“So you will forgive me dearheart but, you aren’t the first and you definately won’t be the last that life somehow shorts…”</p>
<p>Duh?</p>
<p>“I’m honestly sorry for your situation…”</p>
<p>No you are not. Don’t offer your sorry when you also claim that I’m overreacting to my past experiences. </p>
<p>“as my peace offering I hope that you are able to learn from the wrongs in your life, so when it’s your turn you can do it differently and start something new, rather than repeat the cycle”</p>
<p>I don’t accept this “peace offering” as genuine because I view it as a falsely motivated, mainly because you focus on the “when it is my turn,” completely ignoring the fact that I stated many times that I have “stopped the cycle,” done well, etc. </p>
<p>When you want to talk to me as an adult, not your imagined inferior, and consider that bad experiences don’t just mimic yours, I’ll be here.</p>
<p>Stanford isn’t like the Ivies when it comes to sports scholarships–they give a lot of full ride sports scholarships and field top notch teams in many sports.</p>
<p>Sometime last year I started a list of things I want to do when we’re finished paying college tuition. There’s not one thing on that list that I would put ahead of my children’s college education. </p>
<p>Different people, different situations, different priorities.</p>
<p>Frazzled,</p>
<p>First of all: MY MEMORIES OF 3 HOUR FEEDINGS ARE THE MOST CHERISHED ONES, DO NOT INSINUATE THAT I TOOK IT AS A CHORE. Ask any parent that was the time you couldn’t be more than a perfect parent.</p>
<p>Secondly, I have stated that I do and have saved for my children since the day they were born. However, if we don’t have enough money than we as a family will work to find the money. If that means scholarships, grants and loans than that’s what it will have to be. They are and have always been aware of this. </p>
<p>Thirdly, you state many hardships that you have endured and for that I really am sorry, but I agree with Opie. My Dad made close to 1 million during the years I was in college, he did not pay a dime. Even hiding money so Mom couldn’t get more child support. (Also did not pay for my wedding…look back at my other posts) Did I resent Dad? Yes, but I also cut him out of my life during those years (2nd wife was another reason). So to say I can’t do anything is wrong to say I chose not to is the correct reply. Voice of experience you can do it!
As a side note, I regret that I ever did. I was fortunate to reunite with him after the birth of my s. I told him “you were a horrible father, but I will not deny you your grandson and a second chance, if you hurt him I will never forgive you”. He never did to him or my daughter in the three years he was alive. We found out he had leukemia when my s was 2 and died within a year.
I would re-pay every penny again if I had him.</p>
<p>Frazzled, I’m so sorry for all you’ve gone through. I know that terrible things can happen in big expensive houses. I also know that the fact that they’re paying for college doesn’t erase the past, but it can certainly give you a fresh start. I’m glad you will have the opportunity and I think you will use it well.</p>
<p>MLEVINE</p>
<p>That level of indebtedness for undergrad sounds scary. As Bay pointed out, you do have some other options, though none may be ideal. Are you sure these big loans are your best option?</p>
<p>Opie, when I read your posts I agree philosophically with the vast majority of your ideas but to me the issues are presented too clearly - too black and white.</p>
<p>Students headed to college need to be pragmatic and deal with the economic reality of their family’s situation … whatever decisions their parents have made. I hope to raise my kids to be resilent, pragmatic, thoughtful, and resourceful to be able to work through whatever challenges life throws them.</p>
<p>That said two people have actions in any interaction. Hopefully the student responds well to whatever economic situation they face … those are the actions that they own … and the only ones they control.</p>
<p>However there is a second player in this transaction who also owns their actions also. However the student responds the parents also own their actions … and as I said earlier for a family with means and a high EFC I have a hard time seeing the argument for telling a kid you’re totally on their own for paying for school. Any family can decide whatever they want to decide but this is a decision that from the outside just does not make a lot of sense to me.</p>
<p>What baffles me is, to me, whatever life lesson is trying to be taught is being taught to such an extreme that it is also teaching other negative lessons. During college I want my kids to become self sufficient, appreciate the opportunity, and have some serious skin (money) in the game about paying for school. I also want them to get a terrific education, have lots of options as undergrads, have lots of options after graduation, and start their post college life with as few restrictions as possible. Balancing these two issues is paramount to Mom3togo and I … and, to me, when I see parents say “you’re on your own even though we could help a lot” the balance is so far in one direction the student is going to pay heavily in the other direction.</p>
<p>A few hundred posts ago I mentioned an IVY cost $7000 in the late 70s and you responded that was big bucks then. That is true … but being pragmatic this was also true. A student working summers, working 10-15 hours/wk during school, working during breaks, and getting government subsidized loans (no extra private loans) could pay for a top private school and they certainly could pay for state schools with less of a work and/or loan requirement. In my day if parents decided not to pay it did not really limit the options of where a student can go or of their experience while at the school.</p>
<p>Fast forward to now. The situation is MUCH-MUCH different. If the student is a top student and is a good candidate for merit scholarships than there are lots of options that are just fine. However for those kids who ar not merit candidates than parents saying they will not pay anything severly limits their kids options. Private schools are certainly out of the picture short of boat loads of private loans … which require a huge debt coming out of school (bad idea IMO) and an adult to co-sign. I live in Massachussets and state schools here are not affortable in the work part-time during school and only subsidized loans scenario. Parents who take this position in Mass a telling their kids … go to CC, work full-time while a student, get a boat load of loans, or delay going to school for years while you save a ton of money … and all these things seem are limits I would never put on my kids if I didn’t need to and have a very hard time understanding why other families do so (I’m talking UMass at this point not Harvard). </p>
<p>I guess this tough approach teaches financial independence but, to me, teaches a weird lesson on helping family. </p>
<p>My kids are going to work summers, work (or EC) during school, and take out minimal loans during school … for my family that is the balance between them having skin in the game and our helping them get a good education and to start life with few restrictions. We would have it no other way (PS - and our graduation present will be paying off the student loans … the kids just will not know that in advance). </p>
<p>Opie, I agree each child owns their response to their parents decisions … just as the parents own their decisions and the limitations it puts on their kids.</p>