"When women stopped coding" story about the drop in women majoring in CS

I have to disagree based on D’s experience. A different approach to teaching the same introductory material made a difference for her. Having a computer in class, coding in class with the professor instead of a separate lab, interesting examples. She learned the same material everyone else did - just not the same way. She enrolled in the class because she was apprehensive about the material - and found her calling. Dull material, made interesting because it wasn’t a lecture 100% of the time. I guess I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

Like @OHMomof2 said, it’s WHEN you introduce the dry stuff.

And like @IxnayBob wrote, the dry stuff had context for his kid, who already had some programming under his belt.

A lot of the issue I’m seeing with CS (including recently finishing a CS class myself for the first time) is lack of context. I was so mad at having to write all of this code, then go back and DELETE it and put in other code that worked better, because that’s what the book told me to do. Why not just teach me to do it efficiently the first time?

The argument is (and has always been) that I was building my knowledge base for when to use the first kind of code and when to use the second, but I felt like I’d been duped into doing twice because there was no overlying context of “we’re going to show you one way to do this, then we’re going to show you the more efficient way”.

I started reading the rest of the chapters from back to front (I’m left handed and sometimes do this anyway), and had a MUCH less aggravating time with the rest of the class. (Got an A, btw, but really didn’t enjoy it at all.)

The intro computer class I took many eons ago - had lots of bells and whistles. The lectures were extremely entertaining. I still remember trying to write an algorithm for diapering a baby.

Here’s the current version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-OxzIC6pic Still look pretty fun. This, by the way, is one of the most popular courses at Havard and I think at least this course has plenty of women. (I remember the lecture that included ripping up phone books too - at about the 16 minute mark.)

In my daughters school they started programming on a Thymio robot in Kindergarten. She thought it was pretty fun. It could blink lights at her when she clapped. http://www.techykids.com/product/thymio-ii-2/

^^you want “dry and boring,” how about Accounting 1. Even the Accounting majors I knew were bored silly. But they knew that they needed a decent grade to continue, so they sucked it up. :slight_smile:

@mathmom a couple of random facts. When David Malan took CS50 he got a B- . He probably thought it was dry and boring. 70 per cent of the kids in CS 50 have never taken a class in CS anywhere.

Lets flip this around. If a male student entered a college class of 35 and he was the only male do you think there would be any impediments to him staying in the class or in the program.

CS and the computer industry needs to be more female friendly if they want to attract more women. CS actually has a worse problem with blacks and Hispanics interestingly.

How many men go into nursing? More than used to, but not many. I’m sure there must be places where a man might be the only one in the class. Are there impediments? I don’t know. I know that men tend to stay out of traditional women’s fields - probably because they pay less. And why is that?

I know 70% of the kids in the class have never taken any CS - if you watch the lecture they tell you that right at the beginning. I suspect that helps with the confidence of a lot of students taking it.

I didn’t find CS dry and boring, but I didn’t like debugging programs. I got some sort of B too. Maybe even a B- :smiley:

For some girls, “dry and boring” may not be the problem.

A lot of boys have been interested in computer science as a hobby for years before college, and some may have also taken formal courses in it in school or in summer programs. Girls seem less likely to do these things during their middle school and high school years.

Then they get to college, and the introductory computer science course has no prerequisites. But in fact, the class is dominated by guys who have been programming for years and the course is often geared to their needs. The student who is truly new to computer science – as many female students are – can’t keep up and gets a disappointing grade.

My son was a computer science major. He had been programming for years before he started college and had taken five computer-related courses in high school including AP Computer Science. Although he could have placed out of the introductory computer science sequence in college, he chose to take it – and found it challenging. A true newbie to computer science would have been hopelessly lost in those “introductory” courses.

Research shows that female college students are more likely than their male peers to use their grades as an indicator of whether a subject is appropriate for them. A girl will say “I got As in economics, math, and psychology and a B minus in computer science. Why the heck am I a computer science major?” And the next semester, she’s suddenly majoring in economics. But is she really better at economics than computer science? Or do her grades reflect the fact that introductory economics is truly introductory and introductory computer science is not?

This circles back to the sexism in gaming culture, which is both well documented and very severe. While I think the percentage of CS that is involved in that community is shrinking, there is still a big effect academically. At my school, within the CS community, there is a clique of guys that are big time gamers - often accidentally a clique just by always hanging out socially at tournaments, conventions, etc. Of those who I would consider to be part of that group (probably 1/3rd of the CS department), I know of one girl in it out of probably about 50 or more. I know about as few minorities.

The problem of women in CS (and Black/Hispanic students as @collegedad13 mentioned, which is a big piece of the big picture as well) has so many moving parts - you can’t isolate it to one thing, or even one group of people. It is affected by communities completely out of the control of academics in any way. It makes it an incredibly hard problem to solve, and it’s what makes women in CS groups so important. Simply to be able to discuss all of this is really helpful - to know that the stereotype is not all encapsulating.

My friend group is a lot of those CS kids who aren’t involved in the gaming community. Within my closer CS friends, I know more women and non-white students than that entire aforementioned group. It’s about a quarter of the size. I don’t think the effect the gaming community and that stereotype can be understated.

At its core, CS is mathematical, especially when it comes to who excels and understands it naturally. As far as I know, we have a much better gender split there - that shows a lot to me about the differences in communities.

Interestingly enough, a lot of those students in the gaming community get weeded out in the job process if they aren’t social. A developer’s job is at least half communication and working with others, something a lot of people here probably don’t realize. So, for those few minorities who can make it to the light at the end of the tunnel of academia, they usually do well, and the communities at that level are very supportive. At that point though, it’s too late.

As others have mentioned, starting young is the one thing we can all agree on. Selling CS as a math and logic game rather than a computer club is something I think would be a great approach. CS still struggles from basic gender roles too, and when you look up and you see them perpetrated, for all the reasons we’ve discussed, they are hard to break. A steady upward trend is all we can hope for, because it’s not going to happen overnight.

Not sure what the official statistics are for math majors but my daughter’s high level college math classes were dominated by males (in one class the first week it was about 50/50 and then most of the girls dropped the class and my daughter was in a huge minority). These high level math classes are only taken by engineering, CS, and math majors so it might be the two non-math students that are skewing it. She also only had one female math college teacher (and took tons of math as a math major).

So tying CS to math might not unskew the ratio.

I agree you have to get the girls interested when they are young through gaming or robotics etc.

@kiddie

According to this source, Math/Stats is at 45% - not perfect, but within reasonability. If CS can get halfway there, that’s progress (unfortunately).

http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/14/percentage-of-bachelors-degrees-conferred-to-women-by-major-1970-2012/

Note: This is from a quick google - if anyone has better numbers, do include them.

“Unlocking the Clubhouse” by Allan Fisher, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and Jane Margolis, University of California, Los Angeles, California

https://books.google.com/books?id=StwGQw45YoEC

https://monoskop.org/images/5/53/Margolis_Jane_Fisher_Allan_Unlocking_the_Clubhouse_Women_in_Computing.pdf

I wanted to give an update on my DD who is completing her internship at IBM. She was talking very seriously about going to law school because she felt she did not belong - the imposter syndrome - because coding and gaming were not her life. She has many interests including getting a minor in English.
They just did their final presentation for their project, and my DD had over 6 depts. that wanted to interview her, about double what the other technical interns had. She has found there are many paths for a person like her that has the technical ability but also communication/presentation skills and can relate to nontechnical people. She is feeling much better about her future and choice of major.

@GTAustin my daughter finished a government internship this summer. She found the skills she’s acquiring as an art minor (not digital or graphic; her specialty is clay) made her very valuable to the mentors. It really can be better for a student NOT to be focused solely on computers.

@ordinarylives , I’m glad to hear about your daughter. My youngest DD is starting college going into CS but also a minor in fine art, drawing and painting, not graphic/digital. It would be great if she could use both skills in her career choice.

Awesome, @GTAustin !

Yes, Great news all around, @GTAustin !

That’s great news about your daughter, @GTAustin.

I work at a large technology company (in video games, no less) and the culture is definitely coding and gaming. Personally it matches my interests and preferences; it’s odd, because I always felt a bit out of my element before here because I was a big gamer and gaming felt like an outcast/nerdy pursuit. I went to a women’s college but none of my friends and classmates were gamers - I played games with male friends at the men’s college across the street. It’s the absolute opposite here; people not interested in games (and other nerdy stuff, like sci fi and fantasy and such) are the outliers. It’s my personal heaven, but I’ve been here a year and I can see how it can alienate some people - especially women and people in other minority groups. I’m both, but I’m pretty rare in my company tbqh! There are several times when I look around the room and I am the only person of color, and sometimes the only or one of very few women, especially in the male-dominated franchise I currently work on.

But yes, I do like the thought of selling CS as more of a logic game than a computer club - and of making it clear that being able to code and design software is completely orthogonal to liking Star Wars or the Lord of the Rings or playing D&D on Saturday nights. I see a world where coding is taught in schools just like math or literature or history, so kids can learn it from the ground up rather than having to develop it as a hobby. That helps girls but also kids of color and kids from low-income backgrounds, who are far less likely to decide to take apart a computer or start coding something unless someone exposes them to it (and they’re less likely to get exposed).

@ordinarylives “It really can be better for a student NOT to be focused solely on computers.”

Does a minor in math and another minor in statistics count?

I don’t know @Much2learn. D is a double major in math and CS.