Where are the middle class high achievers going?

A notable portion of students at Ivies are in what most forum members would consider “middle class”, although middle class are clearly not overrpresented to the the same degree as wealthy. For example, the most recent Harvard freshman survey for which there was no “prefer not to say” category shows the following distribution. It’s nothing resembling the common “donut hole” or “barbell shape” descriptions, with a claimed missing middle income.

Under $40k – 14%
$40-$80k – 15%
$80-$125k – 16%
$125k-$250k – 22%
$250k-$500k – 16%
$500k+ – 17%

However, I’d expect the largest portion of middle class high achievers to attend in state publics, similar to how the majority of college students overall attend in state publics.

1 Like

I have a pretty high achiever at Clemson, she only gets $10,000 a year (I think $12,000 is the highest). It came down to Suny Bing (cheapest), Rutgers (no merit) and Clemson (last minute application, Covid related). Apparently Clemson was a lot more generous several years ago. Lehigh was too expensive.

I had a high achiever choose UDel honors over Villanova honors, $, one who went to rutgers. My sons had B+ averages and 30 acts so they don’t appear to be a part of this group.

This is an important question, that I hope OP will clarify.

You can find several top tier public flagships where academically talented (“Ivy caliber” for lack of a better term) students can find their intellectual peers. Because, after all, these are students who could have been at an elite private but as we know, not everyone gets in or they can’t afford to attend.

But typically these are not the institutions that hand out a lot of merit. They simply don’t need to - they get plenty of highly qualified applicants and only need to offer merit to a few (predominately in state applicants who might otherwise go elsewhere).

So whether or not you’re looking for merit $ makes a big difference.

5 Likes

Look at the schools that buy kids - that’s what they’re buying - high achievers.

Bama
Arizona
Arizona State
Arkansas
Miss State
WVU
FSU
Kansas
UGA
SUNYs

Then you can look at the schools with top Honors Colleges

U of SC
ASU
KU
Penn State
Clemson
Rutgers
and more

Then you have schools that have lower tuition than some of the big names
Purdue
UF
UCONN - and merit possible
Delaware - and merit possible
Indiana and Merit possible
Iowa/Iowa State and merit possible
KU and K State and merit possible
LSU merit possible
Mizzou - merit and residency possible
UMD
Ohio State - merit possible
Oklahoma - merit possible
U of SC - merit possible
Utah - merit possible and some say getting in-state is possible.
UTK - merit possible
UVM - merit possible
WVU - merit possible
Wyoming - merit possible

You also have “regional” or specialized schools that are strong - a Truman State, an FAU Wilkes Honors, the Mines schools, etc.

I don’t agree with your premise at all though. All schools will put out successes and all will put out failures.

Your goal first and foremost is to decide - what you can or more important want to afford. I could afford every school but wanted to afford $50K - and it didn’t matter if my kid got into Harvard, she wasn’t going - it’s why she didn’t apply to Gtown or Cornell, both on her list - dad wouldn’t have paid even if she got in just like I didn’t pay for W&L. And for my son, WUSTL wanted him to apply ED badly (they begged) and when they told me they’d release me if I couldn’t afford the school, I said - what if I didn’t want to afford it - and for that they said they couldn’t release me - so he applied RD, knowing without merit he couldn’t go based on dad.

It’s not a question of rising star or falling knife…

3 Likes

There seems to be a lot of confusion caused by not paying close attention to attendance rates not controlled for test scores versus attendance rates controlled for very high test scores.

If you are just looking at attendance rates, at Ivy+ colleges they simply go up with income. A lot. Meaning a much higher percentage of children of middle-income families attend an Ivy+ than children of lower-income families. Upper-middle-income families attend at a higher rate than lower-middle-income families, and then upper-income families attend at higher rates still.

If you control for very high test scores, things are less linear. But that’s not a contradiction, because a much smaller percentage of children from lower-income families get very high test scores.

Even so, here is what it looks like when you control for very high test scores:


There is no consistent pattern among the Ivy+ through about the 70-80th decile–some go down a bit, some up a bit, and some are flat. To the extent we can say something generally, I think it would be there is more variance at the lowest incomes between Ivy+. By the time they get to 70-80, they are much more bunched up.

And again, actual attendance is always going up, this is just reflecting what happens when you control for very high test scores and therefore isolate the much smaller pool of lower-income children with very high test scores. Among that small pool, there is a lot of variance.

OK, then the general trend starting above the 70-80th decile is up–and this again is controlling for high test score!

OK, then in the top 2% or so, at most Ivy+, there is a big explosion of attendance rates, even controlled for very high test scores! Chicago and MIT are kinda exceptions, but that’s it.

OK, so how are Ivy+ different from other highly selective colleges? Well, they are not really very different from other highly selective private colleges–see (b). A few more don’t explode in the top 2%, but otherwise it is the same sort of curve.

How about highly selective publics? Well, out-of-state once again looks very similar–see (e). But in-state, there is finally a change–instead of exploding in the top 2%, it actually goes down. See (d).

OK, so what do we know? First, again, attendance not controlled for test scores goes up with income at all these selective privates and out-of-state publics.

Second, attendance controlled for test scores has no consistent pattern from 0-20 through 70-80, but there is more variance among these colleges among the small pool of lower-income people with very high test scores.

Third, at most places, attendance controlled for test scores goes up from 80-99.

But finally, at most places, attendance controlled for test scores explodes among the top 2% at Ivy+, other highly selective privates, and highly selective publics out of state. And that is apparently coming at the cost of top 2% attendance at in-state publics.

So where do middle-income high-achievers go? All these places.

But the upper-middle are doing a bit better than the lower-middle, controlling for very high test scores. And even more so if you don’t control for very high test scores.

3 Likes

Maybe I’m missing something…but your assumption is that colleges on’y look at SAT or ACT scores and GPA. While this is true at some places, many more are looking to build a class that has varying strengths in a lot of things…not just high stats. For schools that do holistic admissions (and I believe many Ivies etc do), they are looking far beyond your numbers.

If you want to attend a college that has admissions based only on standardized test and GPA, there are some of those. Go there.

4 Likes

phdj73
As a middle class parent of high achieving students, this is my concern.
They will likely be shut out of Ivies as they are not the demographic ivies are embracing.

I don’t think it is true that Ivies aren’t embracing high achieving middle class kids. Middle class kids may get in but not have enough aid or any aid, so the kids often go to an honors college at the state U or to a private that gives merit.

I think a question is how does one define “high achieving.” Kids with high grades and test scores meet a benchmark for consideration but many do not get into top schools like Ivies. I think there is a mistaken notion about what these schools are looking for.

6 Likes

I am fortunate to live in a state (Georgia) where our top students can attend our public universities for free. I have a close friend who teaches in one of the highest achieving public high schools in our area, and told me the vast majority of his top students don’t even apply anywhere other UGA and Georgia Tech. The ones that don’t make the cut at those schools will either go to a “lower” level school in the state university system and plan on transferring or take merit scholarships to schools like Alabama, Auburn. South Carolina or Kentucky. Honors colleges at just about any state flagship are filled with high achieving middle and upper middle class kids.

Edited to add that the list of matriculations from my kids private high school looks quite a bit different. I’m not sure how we are defining “middle class”, but it seems like there are a lot of people on these boards with family incomes over $300k who don’t want to admit that in most areas of this country that is solidly upper class.

8 Likes

This thread has so many opportunities to derail! :unamused:

It can quickly devolve into a “are elite colleges worth it?”, or holistic admissions discussion thread, etc.

4 Likes

So your answer above was fantastic. Thank You.
My kids are juniors are I want to help craft them a list of schools that will value their hard work and reward them for it. Since they are going to be full boat, im also trying to gauge if LACs and others are really worth it, particularly since many turn away high achievers, and I wonder how that plays out.

1 Like

I’d say the falling knife is going to hit you on the head.

It takes a LOT more to get into- let’s use Yale today- than high scores and good grades. If your kids want a college that is only looking at those metrics- the world is filled with them. The UK, Canada-- look there.

But honestly- this isn’t “new news”. The top girl in my HS went to a local nursing college (she was ranked #1 out of over 1,000 seniors; she was the only girl in my class to take both AP Physics and AP Chem and got 5’s on both). Her parents did not want to pay for the “going away” experience (which cost all of $6K or something per year back then) and so the “best deal” she got was a full ride at nursing school. This was over 50 years ago-- kids chasing merit, regardless of their stats. The #2 girl (her rank was #4 since there were two guys in there) commuted to a local college for their school of Ed. She had been admitted to one of the “seven sisters” with a scholarship, and despite the intervention of the guidance counselors-- her dad said “Why would I pay for a dorm room when she has a bedroom at home?” Can’t argue with that.

So not sure what’s the news here. Middle class high achievers have always had to balance the reality of the checkbook, parental expectations and family norms, their own accomplishments, and time/distance/admissions standards.

Why didn’t the strong women in my class apply to Princeton? They weren’t taking women, that’s why! So sure- admissions rates for men dropped the year women were included in the applicant pool. Are you suggesting we go backwards in restricting who can apply? I’m sure not!

1 Like

Exactly, meaningful holistic review necessarily means there will be cases where A gets in and B does not despite B having better academic qualifications.

The basic issue here, though, is pretty much EVERY aspect of holistic review benefits higher income families. Grades controlled for rigor? Yes. Standardized test scores? Yes. Interesting or high-level activities? Yes. Personal ratings for things like leadership or kindness or humor? Yes again.

The “good” news for middle-income families is they tend to benefit from all of this more than lower-income families. The “better” news for upper-middle-income families is they tend to benefit from all of this more than lower-middle-income families. But upper income families benefit the most of all–in every way.

Again, you appear to be the victim of an urban myth.

Whether you want to pay for a highly selective LAC or not is up to you.

But there is zero evidence that these LACs are generally less likely to admit a high test score applicant who would be full pay.

5 Likes

Reward them in opportunity or in money?

My kid is at Charleston - the #16 or #17. But she’s a Charleston Fellow and International Scholar and Ketner Scholar. She’s awarded financially but also with three mentors (one of which is professional) and lots of extra opportunities including meeting diplomats such as Dennis Ross, the former Canadian Ambassador, the current Swiss ambassador and more. They have something called the Mroz Institute and frankly she didn’t know about it when she applied - she just liked the school. So make it a point to see what types of special programs each school offers.

Others can go to a USC or wherever and get lost in the crowd.

That’s why I say it’s up to the kid.

But there are LACs (and kids can get lost there) in all sort of geographies and price ranges and they’ll be as good as your kid wants them to be. All will have profs that care.

And there are some kids that an LAC is too small - but maybe a mid size public or large public with an Honors College gives them the heft and intimacy all in one.

First thing is - for you to establish a budget. Forget the school.

You say you’re full pay. Are you willing to front at their age - $375K, $300K, 200K $100K?

All are possible and all will provide wonderful opportunities - maybe not the same - but wonderful - if they take advantage of them.

So when you say - “Since they are going to be full boat, im also trying to gauge if LACs and others are really worth it” - that’s really not a fair question because the answer will be “yes” if it’s the right place.

The right question is - not what the college says you are (full pay) but what you say you are.

From there, then you find the schools, based on what your students seek, that will fit the bill.

You are trying to tie price or pedigree to worth and from a day to day experience POV, I’m not sure there’s a close correlation.

5 Likes

You have a fatalistic tone that seems to suggest your kids are entitled to something they won’t be receiving. As “full boat” parents your kids have opportunities that others can only dream of.

FYI I assure you kids like yours are not being discriminated against by Ivies or elite LACs, they just have to be at the top of their cohort. Others who are gaining admission have worked just as hard and I am sure your kids will be rewarded (your term) consistent with their relative achievement. I would suggest not allowing them to preemptively feel like victims.

12 Likes

Closing temporarily for cleaning

Reopening.

I’ll refer users to the Terms of Service link that appears at the bottom of this and every page. Pay particularly attention to the general behavior section, because posts like the ones I deleted are entirely inappropriate for this site.

I’m unsure of the purpose of this thread, but I’ll give it some slack for now. However, if the objective is to continue the conversation from the elite colleges thread that I closed today, this will just get closed. Any posts with pie charts, line graphs, or statistical analysis will be viewed as off-topic discussion.

If the OP is looking for suggestions for their kid, they’re better off starting a Match Me thread.

1 Like

Gosh, that all brings back memories. Fifty years ago, people basically went where they could afford and for the overwhelming majority of my middle-class, Queens, NY h/s graduating class, that meant SUNY Albany, SUNY Binghampton and SUNY Stony Brook - in that order. Occasionally. you’d read in the school newspaper that So-and-So had applied to and been accepted by Yale - but it did not fail to escape anyone’s notice that he came from the only family we knew with a stay-at-home mom and that his dad was a dentist. I’m pretty sure that in today’s argot they would be considered a full-pay family.

Then, as now, it was like buying a car. Most people drove Fords, but if you wanted to make a statement, you drove a Mercury. :grin:

7 Likes