i would have appended this question to the conversation about “elite schools” but the thread seems to be closed. So in a nutshell… where are middle class high achievers going?
As a middle class parent of high achieving students, this is my concern.
They will likely be shut out of Ivies as they are not the demographic ivies are embracing. They may make a Villanova or a Lehigh, but is it worth full boat? Especially when Rutgers is ranked #55 vs these at #50. As someone else noted in the “elite school” thread, I can invest the money in a retirement account for them. Or help them with their first home. Or buy a Chic-Fil-A franchise.
I can tell you anecdotally, in my NJ district, many students are heading south-- U of Sc, Clemson, Alabama. Schools that are rewarding high achievers with merit aid. People jokingly call it a “diaspora”. Some others have embraced the NJ STARS program to take 2 years free CC, then onto another 4 year college.
From things Ive read anecdotally, there seems to be a population of high achieving students sufficiently dissuaded by being turned away from top tier insitutions or accepted but with no merit aid. Does this become a sea change, and how does it influence rankings/perception in the coming years?
I think that some stay instate, many take merit, and a few take on significant debt.
What demographic are the Ivies embracing? Poor and first Gen kids-- is that a “demographic” and if so, there seem to be enough of “everyone else” to drown out their impact on campus culture!
The high achiever donut hole students/families we knew at my D’s HS followed the money. Most stayed instate or went for big scholarships in the south or southwest.
This was 5 years ago now so I can tell you some of the post grad outcomes - two are doing fully funded PhDs at T10s, two are in med school, and the rest are all happily employed in their fields. I only know one student from D’s HS cohort who is underemployed and it’s because of health challenges, not where they went to college.
How does that compare to attending an in state public university?
i think its cost neutral/maybe in some instances a little less. But the campus experience and weather are more appealing.
That debt is staggering…and Im a at loss to understand how you generate ROI on that.
Five years ago I spoke with a dad whose son went to university in Ireland vs. sending him to Stevens at a cost of $240k. Now that number is $350k, and when my kids come of age it will probably skew closer to $400k.
It sounds like you’re a fellow NJ resident.
To answer your question (based only on families I know): many are going to Rutgers because they get into the Honors College with good merit $$. That’s a hard deal to pass up.
A large number are going to leading public flagships. Many get into Honors programs but merit money is typically hard to get, but they pay up for the name. Purdue, Maryland and UIUC are popular schools. Michigan and Georgia Tech too, but those are much harder admits. A handful to UCLA or UVA.
Some are chasing merit and go south. A few go closer - to Delaware, which seems to offer good merit $$.
Of course, many do get admitted to private elite schools too - but I interpreted your question to mean where does everyone else go?
It is staggering, you are right.
S22 took the NMSF scholarship to Alabama. We are taking the funds from his 529, funding up to $35K in his Roth IRA, giving him $50K starting money, buying him a car, and ensuring he has plenty of funds to live on during college. That worked out well.
D24 is applying to six schools. Five are publics. One is an Ivy because she wants to take her shot. Realistically, she knows that her best economic fit is UT-K. They have her major. She has met with the department (and they basically said they would give her paid research as a freshman). She can have her car on campus (big deal for her). It is the closest. It is close to a major national park with okay rock climbing. Oh…and it would be free, meaning that since she wants to do a PhD (which while her subject tends to be fully funded) means we could seed her IRA and ensure that she does not live like a pauper as a graduate student.
Yes, but also…how does this scenario play out over the next few years? I have to imagine there is a decent sized population of middle class students in the same boat. High achievers, but no merit aid. If you make an Ivy/Ivy adjacent, will it be worth full boat in a few years time as the social engineering plays out? Otherwise, does it make sense to stay in-state or maybe incur some expense a school like Purdue which seems to value high achievers more? I want to deploy my college dollars as efficiently as possible. i dont want to catch a falling knife but would rather hitch to a rising star.
I don’t know - I imagine my county would be defined as upper class, not middle class as average home prices are over $800K.
The top ten are - and not in order:
Alabama
Auburn
Belmont (TN is very white, religious, and conservative - especially my county)
Lipscomb (TN is very white, religious, and conservative - especially my county)
Middle Tennessee State
Tennessee Tech
UTC
UTK
Vanderbilt (I suppose because it’s local and we have wealth) - and the other two privates (LIpscomb and Belmont) are local.
Western Kentucky
If I had to guess, the top 3 would be MTSU, UTK, and Alabama but it doesn’t show that.
I think most people in most places go to their local or nearby state schools. In our case, WKU gives in state tuition.
On the CC everyone is a 4.0+ with 10 APs and a 34 ACT. Most average kids are likely a 3.5 and our top school district in the state has a 25 ACT.
That’s why you get WKU and MTSU and WKU type schools.
btw - my son had one friend who chose Rice, one the army, and the rest (all top kids) either UTK or Alabama. He had one friend who wanted Purdue but gave no merit and went to UTK.
The Ivy caliber/high achieving students I know who remained instate (ie Rutgers) or accepted merit money to OOS schools have done very well.
On my street…
UConn (times 3)
Babson
Santa Clara
Boston University
Clemson
U of South Carolina
Wesleyan (times 2)
Cornell
Amherst
RPI (times 2)
University of Washington
Springfield College
University of Hartford
Westfield State U
Central Connecticut State University
SCAD
University of the Arts Phili
University of Arizona
Union
George Washington University
Marquette
I don’t think anyone chased merit. Can’t speak for the rest, but we paid full freight for two expensive private universities, because we could. And we have no regrets at all. Every kid on our street graduated or will graduate from a four year university, and only a handful went to an instate public university.
I would classify us as upper middle class.
It has worked out well for the kids I know.
Purdue, UIUC and UMD have excellent resources, especially for their Honors students and also have collaborative environments from what I’ve heard. The kids I know who’ve graduated from these schools are very happy with their career outcomes.
The Rutgers grads have done well too, but they’ve had to struggle through the “RU Screw” bureaucracy (or maybe that made them tougher!).
3 recent graduates that I know have gone on to grad school - at Michigan, Stanford and Columbia.
We are UMC.
One of my kids attended an instate school for undergrad and a private school (with merit) for her masters.
My other child attended a meets full need public school (we had 2 in school for 3 of the 4 years) and at the time our EFC was based on 2 in school. She will be attending an OOS public with a scholarship for grad school. She is also permitted (and encouraged by the program) to get instate status for her second year.
We did not take out loans for our kids college education, and I would make that same decision again today.
Out here in the Wild West of Arizona, they end up at ASU and UArizona. A few, like my kids, take the big merit and head out of state at roughly the same cost as staying instate. They’re doing fine after graduation.
A salutatorian dance major who is making it in LA, a music major top student (who took some debt and went to NYU) is doing quite well in New York, a valedictorian who went to Florida Tech and is now working on a PhD at a top school in their field, a top 5% kid who graduated in three years from a “colleges that change lives” LAC and landed a dream job and currently working on a PhD. Numerous ASU kids doing well also.
This is an interesting statement. I personally think @eyemgh has it right. It’s the kid, not the school.
Hard work, perseverance matter. I think it’s 98% of what matters in fact. I know because of my two kids - the Purdue rejector and they gave him money but he went for nice housing over rank and the kid who chose the 16th of 17 schools she was accepted to.
I suppose the Purdue rejector is at a school that will always be a known commodity due to sports - but it’s also a known school because they flat out buy smart kids. They have over 1K from states as far as Texas and Illinois and California at his and more national merit finalists than any school in the country. And as nice a campus and engineering quad as you’ll find. So what if US News says #137 and 99 in engineering. With 20 interviews, 5 offers by xmas, and a job working with Purude and other top kids, while I disagreed with his decision, he saved me a boat load. Turns out employers don’t care what US News says.
And my other kid will be working at arguably the top think tank in the country this Fall during her DC semester - again, at #16 of 17 she was accepted to and classified by US News as #9 in Regional Universities South.
Who is rising? I don’t know - maybe UGA. After all, there was a recent post asking, is UGA the Michigan of the South? Florida - now tied with UNC - or is UNC a falling knife? Pitt gets a lot of love on here - are they rising? South Florida has moved up in US News as fast as anyone these past few years?
Is Columbia a falling knife? They cheated, admitted it, got knocked down 16 spots and now won’t even participate.
If you want value, you have to decide - what is US News rank or Forbes or WSJ or whoever worth from a dollar and cents POV.
I don’t know what your student wants to do - but look in your own circles?
Do you think someone really cares that you want to Colorado or Nebraska or UNC or Oklahoma and let me throw in Colby (#24), Wesleyan (#18), Bates (#25) or Macalester (#27), etc. I put out the story yesterday that in Madrid (yesterday), I met a recent grad from Macalester and when I noted it was a fine school - she was shocked I had heard of it or as she said - no one has and that included her before they sent her literature. We’ve read similar from W&L kids who are at W&L.
Bottom line is - your student can do great things from anywhere.
But your student can also not do great things - from anywhere.
So rising star (today but does that mean tomorrow) or falling knife - really doesn’t matter.
The proper fit and the desire and persistence to control their destiny is what matters.
The real question is - is your student a rising star or a falling knife?
That’s what you should be asking.
That and - what can you afford and can that get them to an opportunity that would best suit them.
I would argue - no matter what you can afford - as long as it’s say $40K a year - you can find the right school in any size and any school type - and that the chosen school can work wonders for your student - if they contribute to that success.
Good luck.
At the risk of sounding inelegant, here it goes: it would appear to me (and perhaps someone can prove me wrong) the Ivies and their ilk are pursuing a more diversified talent pool to fill their incoming classes, and that comes at the expense of turning away other students that statistically achieve better grades/perform better on standardized tests. Do this exercise over multiple years, and you are left with a large pool of students who excelled academically but are disenfranchised from the top tier. So what are they doing? There has to be schools that recognize that these kids as a talent pool to be tapped. And I think down the line those schools will reap dividends. My question is an attempt to identify those schools as possible institutions for my kids to look at. i would rather hitch my wagon to a rising star then try and catch a falling knife.
So you are looking for top tier schools that give merit?