Where can my D study Arabic?

Parents Forum
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<p>I think the fact that many Arabic-speaking nations are on the State Department's "do not travel list" speaks for itself - I would certainly not send D to those places to learn Arabic, therefore I can and will exercise discrimination and not accept all danger in the Middle East as a "fact of life". As a responsible parent I can assure that wherever she chooses to travel while under my care is the safest international destination that meets her needs, although of course no place in the world will be as safe as the little suburban town she grew up in (not a dangerous place, mini, I assure you). Do I wish she was studying French instead? Yes! But there is a medium.</p>

<p>I also realize her future career prospects are not exactly what I would wish for her in terms of safety and that it will be a difficult job otherwise as well. But her life's work is her choice. If she feels she's not "cut out" for it, D is a resourceful young woman with many skills and talents and will find another path. Where she studies abroad, however, I feel I have a significant stake in.</p>

<p>And thank you for the offer K_twin. We might take you up on that :).</p>

<p>mini - There are many places in DC that I would not allow D to walk in!</p>

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<p>We don't disagree. I think you should neither overestimate nor underestimate the dangers or cultural challenges. I have lived for significant periods of time abroad in both the Middle East and in South Asia, and I often see cultural differences interpreted as dangers. (Now granted: I grew up in NYC and my wife in Washington, DC, so the world as a whole looks like a pretty safe place to us.) My 17-year old traveled by herself to Cambodia, Thailand, and India, and worked to dig out bodies following the tsunami on the coast of India. </p>

<p>I think you should listen to all state department warnings, not necessarily because they are correct, but because they will make you feel better (and that's important). But the flipside is that, when there are no state department warnings, that's telling you something as well.</p>

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<p>I was born in DC and lived in Baltimore as a young professional. They are not the safest cities, but the violence in most American cities is restricted to predictable areas - there have been no bombings (and certainly not periodic ones) on Dupont Circle apartment buildings! By no stretch of the imagination does an anti-Western world filled with dictators, civil war and poor sentiments towards women look pretty safe to me. Cultural differences can be a danger. Trust me, I do not underestimate danger, but I will be the first to admit that in some instances I will overestimate it - which I think everyone here will agree is preferable to the former. Also, it is a necessity when one is 1.) a foreigner & unfamiliar with an area and 2.) has rusty skills in the native tongue.</p>

<p>
[quote]
But the flipside is that, when there are no state department warnings, that's telling you something as well.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Are there regular state department warnings from the embassies in Italy and France? (Actually, maybe there are - I have never been overseas myself!)</p>

<p>Mini, your daughter seems like she's traveled far and wide at a young age! Was this during the summer, or as an exhange program of some type?</p>

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<p>@ limepopsicle, if the local university gadad was referring to is Sultan Qaboos University (which strikes me as likely, as that was the only major university in the Muscat region of Oman till recently); then that would be a coincidence! I lived in the SQU campus while in Oman (my father worked at the University Hospital).</p>

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<p>I see you're going to Berkeley! That's quite an accomplishment. My D applied to and was accepted to several schools in CA (rejected by Berkeley - yikes), but we did not want her so far away from home for her first year.</p>

<p>Can I ask you a few questions for D? How were the facilities at the university? Did you ever take any classes there? Did Muscat strike you as a safe, progressive, and fun city? Lastly, D is interested in what dialect of Arabic is spoken there and how common it is in other areas of the Middle East (she admitted she was a little lost when it came to different colloquial versions of the language)? I imagine the last question is the kind of thing she can ask her professors, but if you have any insight that would be excellent.</p>

<p>And out of curiosity, do you speak Arabic as well as English? If English was not your first language, you have an excellent command of it (like a native speaker - maybe you are :)). Sorry for the 21 questions! I figured it would be a good addition to the thread, because other members of CC might be interested in Oman as a study abroad location.</p>

<p>(P.S. D's school's official study abroad program for Arabic language is in Damascus, Syria...Syria however would not be the first country that would come to mind for me as the best location...)</p>

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<p>Red light. </p>

<p>IS there any reason why, if her goal is to study Arabic, she <em>has</em> to do it in the Middle East? </p>

<p>What about Morocco or Algeria? </p>

<p>The fallback language there from colonial days would be French. Relations are not so strained between the U.S. and North Africa as they are over in the Middle East. She could also travel between those countries and Europe.</p>

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<p>@ limepopsicle, Thank you, I'm a little pressed for time today (since I have 8 hours of AP exams tomorrow :)), so I'll write a more comprehensive post in reply to your questions either tomorrow or the day after (I have another AP the day after tomorrow, so I'll be a little busy preparing for that). I'll also speak with my father about the University specific questions and try to answer them as well as I can.</p>

<p>I'm Indian, by the way, and an expatriate living in Dubai (as are about 90% of people here). I can read and write the Arabic script, understanding it well is another story. English was the first language I started speaking.</p>

<p>Re: the type of Arabic spoken in Oman, I understand it is the 'Khaleeji' form, which is spoken throughout the Arabian Gulf (Khaleej = Gulf), with only very slight differences. You'll find the Arabic in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Morocco to be very different from it though.</p>

<p>PS. Could I ask why your D's ruled out Dubai? I mean, if she's looking for a safe, quite progressive and fun city, well she'll find few places as unique and well different as Dubai in the Middle East.</p>

<p>I'll try to answer the first few of your questions in a later post.</p>

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<p>First off, I'm k_twin's twin. By some weird coincidence, I also lived in Oman and the UAE, so I thought I'd also jump into this conversation. :) I've also got 3 exams tomorrow, but hey, procrastination's a right of all high school seniors.</p>

<p>At the very start, I'd just like to say that both the UAE and Oman are very, very low targets for terrorist activity. Oman's very out of the way, a backwater almost, politically, and Dubai/the UAE's frankly too much of an economic hub in the Gulf for anything to happen here. Both have high expatriate populations. (Oman has by far the lesser, concentrated in Muscat).</p>

<p>You'll find a very high percentage of non-Arab expats as well. </p>

<p>Safety: Suffice it to say, that in the 13 years I've lived in these two countries, I have never, ever met anyone who has suffered from any sort of violent crime, or indeed even considered the possibility. I've walked down the streets at 3 am, and never, ever felt in any sort of danger.</p>

<p>Cultural sensibilities: Well, it again differs between the UAE and Oman. It's basically small things. In Dubai at least, you'll find very little difference between it and any other metropolis the world over. (Except that you'll find an incredible plethora of shops that can't really be rivaled anywhere. Oh and you'll see lots of tall buildings).</p>

<p>In Oman, it's a little different. Oman is much larger, so I'll talk about Muscat really, which is the only part of Oman that you'll have to know about. As long as one doesn't walk down a street singing at the top of one's voice, half-drunk, then it should be fine. (Though of course the only thing that'll happen then is that you'll rapidly become very unpopular with the people in the neighborhood. The exception's after a football match, then, anything goes)</p>

<p>Actually, Muscat's a beautiful city, idyllic, laid-back, far more relaxed than Dubai, which has an almost New York style feel of constant buzz and activity. In fact, a good comparison would be that Muscat's the sort of city where you walk down a beach, enjoy the sunset, and then go off to a park or a restaurant. In Dubai, you'll probably be stuck in traffic as you journey between shopping malls and head off to catch a movie that hasn't released in most parts of the world yet. :) </p>

<p>I'll get back to the rest in a bit, especially the rather unique nature of the SQU campus, which in itself is a bit different from Muscat, the city.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
IS there any reason why, if her goal is to study Arabic, she <em>has</em> to do it in the Middle East?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>D's plan is to be an international relations major with a concentration in Middle Eastern studies. Of course, who knows where she will be leaning at the end of next year, since she has not really gotten into her major coursework yet. At one point she was very interested in Cairo, but...</p>

<p>
[quote]
PS. Could I ask why your D's ruled out Dubai? I mean, if she's looking for a safe, quite progressive and fun city, well she'll find few places as unique and well different as Dubai in the Middle East.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>To be honest, I have no idea - I do not think she really knows where she wants to go yet. She is a bit wishy-washy (shh; don't tell her I said that!). Yesterday it was Jordan, today Oman...maybe tomorrow it will be Dubai. Hah.</p>

<p>k_twin and Shrivats, thank you profusely for your insight!</p>

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<p>I just picked up this name from a thread about "Hidden Ivies":</p>

<p>"Gerald Lampe, President, American Association of Teachers of Arabic"</p>

<p>which could be a contact point for you.</p>

<p>If it's "Middle East concentration within IR," a completely different approach for your D would be to study Arabic and Hebrew at one of the English-based programs at Hebrew University in Tel Aviv, Israel. Then she'd be in a Western-friendly country, and it would also take care of all the women's equality concerns right there.
I guess it's important to do it as an inter-university exchange with an American university's overseas program, so the fallback language in the classroom is English not Hebrew. The Israeli students are studying Arabic as a second language, after English, starting from high school now. So you'd want to be enrolled in Arabic classes at Hebrew U. with other foreign students, not the Israeli students, I figure. I think they have a whole section of students who study with an English base in that university.
Streets signs in Israel are in Hebrew, English and Arabic; there are Israeli Arab families who are full citizens, living inside of mainland Israel (I'm not talking about Palestineans or the West Bank). She'd have to listen to what Israelis tell her is safe travel outside the country, as this changes day-to-day and road by road. So if she's the rebellious type who doesn't take adult warnings seriously, don't send her to Israel.
However, unfortunately if a prior Israeli stamp on her passport keeps her <em>out</em> of other Middle East countries in future years, that might limit her future career to some, not all, Arab speaking countries. It varies by country, I believe; another piece of research! (busy Mom)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
However, unfortunately if a prior Israeli stamp on her passport keeps her <em>out</em> of other Middle East countries in future years, that might limit her future career to some, not all, Arab speaking countries.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Interesting.</p>

<p>Thanks for all the thoughts.</p>

<p>Israel was one of those countries I had ruled out. I do not feel it is a safe destination at this time. Is Tel Aviv largely removed from conflicts on the Gaza strip and West Bank? I have heard of suicide bombings even in the city. I know there is a lot going on that country right now. Also, I am not sure it would have the same level of Arabic immersion as other destinations she is considering, but that is an interesting angle to pursue.</p>

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<p>People are visiting Israel all the time; thousands of Jewish students are going there this summer on ten-day "birthright" tours, but all staying inside the mainland borders and not venturing onto the West Bank. </p>

<p>So they'll enjoy Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Eilat, Haifa, the Sea of Galilee..very diverse landscapes and experiences, from mountains to desert, close together. </p>

<p>But: the entire country is the size of New Jersey, and surrounded by nations that wish it wasn't there. There's a "cold peace" with Jordan and Egypt, but the rest is unfriendly to Israel.</p>

<p>So I guess I'd have to say it this way. You know there are some universities in America where there is a great neighborhood full of things to do, but it's near a poverty neighborhood that could mean trouble or hassles, so you stay
close to campus, which is okay because that occupies l00% of your time, anyway. Some examples: Columbia U, U of Chicago, U of Penn, U So. California. </p>

<p>If you perceived enough value at any of those universities to feel like you'd want to parachute your kid into them, and say "don't go over to the tougher neighborhoods", that's what it's like to send a kid to study in Israel.</p>

<p>If you want to go enough, you'd go; or as my uncle living there (near Tel Aviv) said, "If you wait for Israel to be perfectly safe to come, you'll never see it in your lifetime." For some that would be fine, for others, unacceptable so Jewish families worldwide visit and send kids there to study, nonetheless, because it is a FABULOUS country to experience on so many levels. It's worth it, to those who can endure some risk.</p>

<p>Because the Israelis know they are under threat at all times, they are best at watching out for their own citizens' and tourists' safety, re: security checks of packages before entering buildings, citizen alertness of unusual behaviors, and so on.
If a student leaves a bookbag unattended in the hallway of a university in Israel, security will come to check it out before anyone else touches it.</p>

<p>Israel withdrew completely from Gaza a few years ago, but has settlements on the West Bank that are close to Tel Aviv. If your daughter were to study in Israel, she'd surely be advised to never set foot on the West Bank, and there's no interaction with Gaza anymore. </p>

<p>Last summer, longrange missiles were launched from the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon into Israel's mainland northern towns and cities, so there was death and destruction as far south as Haifa, a northern port city. In response came a 33-day war when Israel invaded and airbombed Lebanon to stop it, which apparently worked because there've been no repeat missile attacks since last summer. NOBODY can predict if it will be better or worse this coming summer than last summer.</p>

<p>That is unfortunately the way life is lived in Israel. It is very tense at the same time dynamic, fascinating, wonderful. I would be the last to sugar-coat it for you, especially since you are cautious about safety risks for your child. </p>

<p>In general, I have to say Israel is a more dangerous destination than, for example, Dubai or some of the other places you're pondering in the middle of Arab kingdoms. But in Israel, there are other values to explore. So, the proper question is: is the greater risk worth the greater benefit, to you and her?
How much risk can you live with from home?</p>

<p>IN the field, that is within the country itself, she'd find great awareness, alertness and protection of her as a valued citizen of America and a student. It's a higher state of alert, because the risks are higher.</p>

<p>I hope that's honest. That said, I plan to send my own kids to Israel to study; 1 already spent 4 months there, while the others await their opportunities within the next five years. </p>

<p>Good luck. I wish your D could learn as an IR student how to work with our best ally in the region, Israel. But I can see it's hard for you to consider.</p>

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<p>"They are not the safest cities, but the violence in most American cities is restricted to predictable areas - there have been no bombings (and certainly not periodic ones) on Dupont Circle apartment buildings!"</p>

<p>There have been no bombings or violence in Maadi or Mohandessin in Giza in Cairo either. (And there have been murders near Dupont Circle.) For that matter, there haven't been any bombings in Tehran, Isfahan, or Shiraz. I would never have thought of the World Trade Center as a predictable venue for bombings either. (People forget that 911 was not the first episode there.) Nor the London Underground. How do you go about estimating the risk?</p>

<p>"Mini, your daughter seems like she's traveled far and wide at a young age! Was this during the summer, or as an exhange program of some type?"</p>

<p>She went to Cambodia, Thailand, and India by herself, with funds provided by her college. She wrote a short history of an organization involved in land reform activities, and traveled and met people. We were in south India together two days after the tsunami, and then she returned by herself the following summer.</p>

<p>She is currently doing her junior year abroad in Italy (she is fluent in Italian), has traveled to Vienna, Prague, Athens, and Crete by herself. </p>

<p>The data do not show that most gun-related deaths in the U.S. are in inner cities. But, regardless, there just are so many of them relative to deaths in most of the countries we are discussing. I have friends in India who are actually afraid to come to the U.S. because of the excessive level of violence - I try to dissuade them of the danger, but then they look at the data and shake their heads.</p>

<p>I think it is very easy to conflate cultural discomfort with actual danger. As paying3 points out, Israel is far, far more dangerous than the Maadi or Mohandessin sections of Cairo (which is where virtually all the language institutes are); I think it is also likely that the average resident of these areas is wealthier as well. But the cultural discomfort in the "idea" of Cairo is easily conflated with danger; the cultural comfort with Israel masks it. </p>

<p>As someone who 35 years ago traveled over land (much of it hitchhiking) all the way from England to Afghanistan, lived in Iran, and have lived for longer stints in India, my experience is that the world generally speaking is a much safer place than it was then. Of course, I can't go to Afghanistan now, and Iran only as part of a tour group. (Never was in Iraq before, and am not planning to be in this lifetime. ;)) And there are many other places that are off limits. But, on the whole, cosmopolitanism is much greater, much of the world relies on tourism as a major source of revenue, and the safety of foreigners is absolutely a top level concern virtually everywhere.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I would never have thought of the World Trade Center as a predictable venue for bombings either. Nor the London Underground. How do you go about estimating the risk?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, correct me if I'm wrong or whatever. But I think it's pretty obvious that there's more terrorism-related activity in the Mid East than in America or England. </p>

<p>While tourist sites in DC are safe in daylight:</p>

<p>
[quote]
In addition to the Sinai attacks, there were three terror attacks on crowded tourist destinations in Cairo in April 2005. In one, a lone suicide bomber killed three foreigners, including an American, at Cairo’s Khan el-Khalili Market. Three Americans were seriously injured in this incident.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And that's not including the other terrorist attacks in Egypt in 2003 and 2004, and attacks outside of Cairo by terrorists in 2005.</p>

<p>Yeah...</p>

<p>
[quote]
The data do not show that most gun-related deaths in the U.S. are in inner cities.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's...interesting. Don't you kinda need some statistics to back that up, 'cause that really goes against common logic. There were 265 homicides in Baltimore in 2005. Do accidental weapon discharge deaths in the entire STATE in 2005 add up to that number? Hm.</p>

<p>Anyway, don't really want to jack this thread with arguing so. I'll take the refutes and just leave it at that. Or PM me or something.</p>

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<p>"In addition to the Sinai attacks, there were three terror attacks on crowded tourist destinations in Cairo in April 2005. In one, a lone suicide bomber killed three foreigners, including an American, at Cairo’s Khan el-Khalili Market. Three Americans were seriously injured in this incident."</p>

<p>Yes. But WHERE? There are lots of murders in parts of Washington, DC. But add it up: add all the the terrorist deaths in Maadi and Mohandessin (where the language institutes are) for 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 together, and then compare them with the number of terrorist deaths in the New York, London, and Madrid in the same period. At the current rates of death, Maadi and Mohandessin will catch up to New York, London, and Madrid (anyone sending their kids abroad to study Spanish?) in the year 5,239.</p>

<p>But clearly none of them will rival deaths in Israel.</p>

<p>I am neither trying to underestimate nor overestimate dangers. I'm just pointing out that the actual comparisons are layered over with cultural discomfort. I have no doubt that my Indian friends would enjoy it here. But the idea of visiting a country where there half a billion guns in private hands, ready to be used, frankly freaks them out, and the data are on their side.</p>

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<p>I also think that safety concerns have to take into account the individual -- going beyond concerns of female vs. male.</p>

<p>some kids are just more naive and more easily "taken in". Some refuse to listen to reasonable precautions -- or like to engage in clearly risky behavior. Some are so easily distracted that they could miss clear signs of danger -- and others respond to certain situations with behavior that provokes even more severe consequences.</p>

<p>You need to look at your student's personality and see if there are any potential problem areas -- has your d traveled alone before? negotiated public transportation, airports and neighborhoods alone? Has she been confronted by uncomfortable situations and been able to handle herself? </p>

<p>some students grow up in nice, safe, suburban neighborhoods -- driving or being driven anywhere they need to go. Dropped off by mom and dad at the airport and taken to programs that are set up by adults. There is nothing wrong with this at all -- but this student's opportunities to experience uncomfortable situations on a smaller scale may be very limited.</p>

<p>Before my son went Cairo, he had spend three summers away from home, regularly rides public transportation, has flown independently many, many times -- including transfers, delays (and one night spent on the floor of an airport). He has encountered uncomfortable situations in the form of homeless people harrassing him, a gang following him, witness to a knife fight, interrupting a group of drug dealers, etc. He has learned how to back off, what to say to defuse a situation and when to avoid certain people/areas. He has also learned the value of listening to adults warnings and recommendations. </p>

<p>As you can guess -- we do not live in a nice, safe, isolated suburb. I think that a student's experience makes a big difference when judging whether a situation is safe or not.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
add all the the terrorist deaths in Maadi and Mohandessin (where the language institutes are) for 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 together, and then compare them with the number of terrorist deaths in the New York, London, and Madrid in the same period

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There's a bit of a difference in population size. Anyway, I don't doubt that there's cultural issues that affect impression of safety. But seriously, now, the random American tourist in New York is just going to be in a safer position (not just based on gun violence statistics, but also based on familiarity with American culture, cities, language, everything) than a random American tourist almost ANYWHERE in the Mid East.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Yes. But WHERE?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Popular tourist destinations. Are there really a lot of murders at popular tourist destinations in DC? In broad daylight?</p>

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<p>But if you really want to know where U.S. tourists are unsafe, it is Latin America. For example, there have been 53 U.S. citizens killed in Honduras alone since 1996. Probably least safe at all for American tourists - especially women - is Brazil. </p>

<p>"There's a bit of a difference in population size."</p>

<p>Actually, not as big as you think.</p>

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<p>Honduras is scary dangerous, yo. Anyway. Moving on. Yeah. </p>

<p>...Study abroad. It's nice :).</p>

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<p>I have a friend who is taking arabic classes and studied abroad in Morocco over the summer. She really seemed to enjoy it and didn't have any major safety concerns. Good luck!</p>