Where to go: Cambridge (UK) or France?

Applying to College
21

So GTech is out of the question now.

Note that with AP credits, it may be possible to graduate in 3 years (thus saving some money). If you aren’t interested in anything besides physics and math (and taking the bare minimum gen ed requirements), that is something to keep in mind.

So, if you really don’t want Stony Brook, your options are
–3 years at Cambridge at roughly $145K total.
-3/4 years at CMU for $120K-$160K.
–French prepa
–gap year (or prepa and bail after a year) and apply to schools where you may get giant merit scholarships. Looking down the list of top-ranked physics unis in the world by ARWU ranking, JHU offers a tiny number of big scholarships. UChicago use to as well, but they have become almost impossible to get as the U of C has climbed the rankings. If you’ve already been rejected from those places, don’t bother, however. Actually, big money from both is almost impossible. More likely are UArizona (essentially guaranteed in-state costs if you are a National Merit Scholar, which I assume you are) or possible Banneker-Key (full-tuition) at UMaryland. Those are giant state schools with rather uneven talent in the student body (especially UArizona, where a ton of your classmates will party and then drop out). But they would have some well-respected physics faculty. And honors college may make it worthwhile.
–Take whatever classes you need at a CC/Stony Brook and transfer for the final 2 years somewhere for physics full-time (that would cut down costs to 2 years). The publics are more open to transfers (looking down the ARWU list again, I see Berkeley, UCSB, Colorado, UMich, UCLA besides UMD and 'Zona). Cornell also takes in transfers, but mostly the contract colleges from SUNYs and NYS CC’s that they have articulation agreements with (so not physics).
–Some combination of the above: Prepa and then if you don’t get in to the French school of your choice, see if you count as a transfer or freshman admit and apply again to various American schools listed above. Columbia SGS is easier to get in to and many take a lot of credits there with them, but they require a gap of 1 year in schooling.

If you don’t go the French route, a funded 6Y American PhD program (where you pick up a Masters along the way) straight out of undergrad is the way to go (it would be silly to pay for a European Masters). I think most American unis would be fine with a 3Y Cambridge bachelors (some may be insistent on a +1Y Masters, but you can probably safely ignore those).

I have no experience with the French system, but it sounds terrible, so your only good choices may be paying up for Cambridge (if you decide on that over CMU) or taking a gap year and trying for big scholarships (or Stony Brook).

Hmm. The Arizona NMF scholarship may be out of the question. Seems like you would have had to have listed them first already. They do allow you to stack scholarships, but that option may be out now.

22

The real bottom line is that if you want to go into physics as an academic it’s not going to matter one bit 10 years from now where you did your undergrad only where you did your PhD. And if you are as smart as your post indicates you are you will be able to get into a top Ph.D program and be fully funded no matter where you went to school for undergrad.

23

@katliamom : sorry I appreciate you’re advice I just really hate the idea of going to Stonybrook. I applied there because it was free and took 10 seconds to apply, and I needed a safety school.

@MYOS1634 : I guess you are French? By the way I’ll have l’internat at LLG. I know very well about the prepa lifestyle. It is the complete opposite of what we have here in America. And given that I already do an average of 6 hours of math/physics per day the monastic lifestyle is something I’m used to.
“verbally abused or belittled every single day” ok lol are you trolling? I think you are making it out to be much worse than it is. I have several friends at the prepa at would be going to.

" the idea is that you must prove yourself before you’re allowed to have your own ideas, which will typically he allowed in year 4." this is actually what I dislike about the U.S system. I don’t get the whole undergraduate research thing. I seems like an extension of the high school research thing, which is a bunch of bs if you ask me because you can’t do research if you haven’t learned even the fundamentals. In math and especially in theoretical physics, the likelihood to produce any meaningful research at the undergrad level is zero, unless you are some kind of genius.

" The format is very very important so you could be correct yet get a low mark because it’s not formally elegant. This may appeal to you." lol it kind of does…

“What will you do if you end up selected for Ecole Des Mines d’Ales and think back about the choices you had as a 12th grader? All these sacrifices and pains, for the equivalent of stony Brook, without even the facilities and resources or access to research…”

  • this is what scares me the most. i am facing a choice between going a very risky but free path, and a expensive (for me) but safe path at one of the best universities in the world. Can someone just tell me directly if the money at Cambridge is worth it or will I end up poor and go on welfare because I can’t pay my debt?

“You’ll be expected to know how to write proofs * Before * you start.”

  • yeah this is pretty much what IMO math is all about. as far as the subjects in prepa, I was told the francais philo won’t matter since I’m not French (the coefficient will be lower on the exam for grandes ecoles), the English of course will be a joke for me, and the rest I enjoy.

“In all honesty I can’t imagine someone having the choice of GTech or Cambridge or CMU would wish to inflict this upon themselves.”

I do agree it’s a very weird and risky option for me to do, as an American. I keep telling me dad (who is French) that it’s making things much harder on myself than they need to be and I might as well pay the money to take the safer route. It’s also weird that I would be probably the first American high school student to go to a French prepa because he couldn’t afford any of the schools he got into. The situation I am in is just bizarre and I am almost certain unprecedented.

@alcibiade: are you French? I understand very well that prepa is meant to PREPAre for the exams for grandes ecoles. Given the intensity and rigor of the program - I will learn a lot very quickly. Just because it’s effectively preparing for a test doesn’t mean it’s not intellectually stimulating.

@PurpleTitan : gap year is definitely not an option. Georgiatech is not an option, as I have made deposits only at CMU and Stonybrook. If money wasn’t a problem, I wouldn’t even be posting here and I’d go to Cambridge no question. I really really want to go their, I just want to make sure I’m not going to be destroyed by debt which I can’t pay back. My French relatives can’t even comprehend how you could pay so much for education when they get it for free, and to be honest neither can I…

I’m not sure why people here are bashing the French system. ENS has produced 10 fields medalists and something like 15 nobel prizes in physics. If I get in there, I would in a fantastic position. I have several friends who have gotten into Polytechnique, and they all assured me I would have no problem getting in there if I put in the work.

@VickiSoCal : everyone says that undergrad doesn’t matter, especially if you’re in academia, and especially if you’re in STEM. i can only assume this is correct.

Thank you all for your advice. I will need to make a decision soon and I am trying to reflect on all the information presented to me to make the best choice.

24

@bitznbatzn I am American but have lived in France 18 years and went to scipo Paris in my youth. Both my kids were brought up in the French educational system, which I think is excellent. I have many friends whose kids are in prepa, on both academic and engineering tracks. To a one, they tell me prepa is a horrendous grind, not a single person has spoken of it as intellectually stimulating though one went on to become physicists with CNRS. There is no doubt it is rigorous and high level in a technical sense, but the goal is to get through exams, it is not to learn or pose questions. What you will get are problem sets and competition.

25

@VickiSoCal, I think you are underestimating the value of the undergrad experience, particularly in the formative years of a young mind. Then there are the networks, talented peers, and the like. Going to an absolutely first rate place can be an experience so heady that it lasts a lifetime. Just my opinion, of course.

26

Unfortunately I’m not kidding when it comes to belittling students. I actually worked for a LLG equivalent and the French are as enthusiastic about negative reinforcement as Americans are wrt positive reinforcement. Even overachievers who think it’ll push them get discouraged. There’s a form of solidarity rather than competition but no one forgets that there are very few spots for lots of talented candidates.
As for philosophy, no it’s not meaningless - not taken seriously, certainly, but everyone does the work assigned because they know that, between brilliant stem students, that philosophy grade may make the difference. The grades count for your term ranking and if you don’t do well effortlesssly it sinks your rank.
I also had to give meaningless grades due to the scale I was given, which resulted in marks being in the -72 to 2/20. So, yes, the bilingual kids had 2/20. For the others I told them to aim for a zero.
It is really modelled after the monastic system. Some are broken by it, and for the others years later most only remember the good, liking being pushed to the limit, the intensity of it, and forget the exhaustion and sacrifices, the tedium of 7hours writing stuff down to memorize and synthesize.

If you’re in internat try to get info on hazing (officially illegal but).
Whoever told you you’d get into Polytechnique or Normal Sup lied to you. No one can predict such a thing. It’s as ridiculous as looking at your stats and predicting you’ll get into Harvard and Stanford for sure. You have a shot if you perform well over 5terms, which you haven’t started yet.
The system is terrific for a handful of people, and you seem to love abstract thinking so it’d probably fit. But it’s also terribly unhealthy.
Cambridge gives you the intensity without the sacrifice to your health and personal growth.
Do your parents have a French address? With that you get European fees at Cambridge.

27

@MYOS1634 I agree with you that negative reinforcement can be an unfortunate aspect of French education. However, for kids that synch with the system, they can really excel with a minimum of negativity. That was our experience for the most part, though there were occasional problems such as music or art teachers giving grades so low that they affected their averages. Our kids were both on the science track and it was really good for them. (My daughter went straight into Cam, while most of her friends went into prepa. My son is just entering terminal in Lycee and will apply in the UK in the fall.)

28

I assume the secondary system is merely 'not too encouraging ’ and only some elite schools at that. The classes I observed were different from American classes but nothing like the prepa. I don’t think secondary teachers routinely disparage students except at schools where they can get away with it, either because it’s seen as training for the prepa, or because nobody cares, but I wouldn’t imagine it’s done to all students at secondary level. I agree that overall the system is good, although the watering down of the stem track since 2008 is rather dispiriting, especially to kids trying to take sat subjects or other American exams. (they’re also now one year behind Quebec, hence a required remedial course or a full year, depending on the Canadian school.)

But overall the secondary school system works and I can imagine American students could appreciate the differences. I can’t imagine that for prepa. As you said, 'grind’is the basic evaluation, and unlike the secondary classes I observed the prepa system uses negative reinforcement consistently.
Cambridge is just as intense but would be less unhealthy and less risky.
If OP’s parents have a French address, his dilemma is solved, since s/he’d qualify for European rates. And s/he can impress French family by saying 'j’etais Pris a Louis le grand Mais j’ai prefere Cambridge "

29

A quick way to cull your list:

What level of debt will you be able to pay with the salary of a physics researcher? Now, what schools will incur less than or equal to that debt?

If the salary of this profession will permit you to get this debt paid off comfortably within a decade, then go to those schools that meet the above criterion.

If not, go to Stony Brook and as another poster said, “Be a rock star.”

That said, the French program sounds like admission is very dicey - even if you are talented.

Why not take the “sure thing” in the US or UK?

30

And why is a gap year definitely not an option?

31

About living with debt – no, you won’t end up “on welfare,” but depending how much debt you accrue, your lifestyle will be affected for years - if not decades - after you finish your studies. As a beginning professor/researcher you won’t be making a lot of money, but each month for years you’ll have to shell out hundreds of dollars to pay off your loan. It’s like getting saddled with a mortgage 6 months after you graduate. Except a mortgage is paying for an asset, and you won’t have that. Just bills.

32

I don’t have time to respond to each of your posts individually right now, but I will soon. Let me just say that for Cambridge in fact the 4th year (masters) will be free at Trinity if i place in the top 30% on my final exams there. also my parents will cover the first year. so i really only have to pay for two years with interest, so like $120,000. And that’s to get a masters. if i went to georgiatech and had to pay everything myself, i’d be paying that amount for a bachelors. so it’s not THAT bad. my dad says ill have to pay around $500 per month once i get a job to pay of the loan, and he’ll help me with some of that.

as for the gap year, that wouldn’t sovle anything, it would just set me back 1 year. im not willing to wait as ive wanted to move on to university studies since i started high school. i’d rather go to stonybrook than do a gap year.

i don’t have a french address and i’m not a resident of the eu. so i don’t get the advantage of eu rates, unfortunately.

myo: the director of the math prepas program at lycee pierre de fermat (toulouse) told me he is sure i will get into polytechnique or ens. i hope you do realize that i’m not your average math student; there are lots of kids more talented than me (most of my friends lol) but being an imo contestant does mean i have a great advantage over others already. so while i think i’m capable of getting into a place like ens or polytechnique, i’m not crazy enough to commit 5 years to france and bank everything on the results of a test, including my sanity (as you have noted will be affected in prepa xD).

33

As I said before, when you enter a fully-funded PhD program (which any decent American physics PhD program would be) straight out of undergrad, you get both your Masters and PhD paid for (and you receive enough to live on as well).

And $120K is a ton of debt for a physics PhD. Granted, some find lucrative jobs afterwards (but not in physics research).

A gap year allows you to apply for big scholarships (full-tuition, full-ride, or stackable scholarships that add up to full-tuition/full-ride) at schools that you may like more than Stony Brook. But Stony Brook may be fine enough.

How long do you plan to live? If you expect to live to 80 or more, 1 year is nothing.

34

OP, rereading your posts, it seems you want us to tell you it’s OK take out $120K+ in loans to go to Cambridge. You’re against any other option with the exception of the very risky prepa.

We’re here to tell you there ARE other options, including a gap year in which you’d apply more strategically to schools that will recognize your academic achievement with enough FA to attend and not burden yourself for years with loans. That of course will entail you looking at your predicament in a more mature and nuanced manner.

Finally, if you DO decide to go into such debt, at least be smart about it. Google ‘paying off 100K+ in college loans’ and see what’s in store for you after graduation. Don’t count on your dad chipping in. You’ve already learned, the hard way, that parents don’t always have the means to help their children financially, no matter how much they’d like to.

35

@katliamom : I’m not against any other option. I really really don’t like the idea of paying so much money. To be clear its 100,000 in loans which translates to 120,000 with interest. I feel that all my options are bad: Cambridge is too expensive, France is too risky and I’m not really ready to make a 5 year commitment to another country, and Stonybrook is too depressing and is remote from the educational experience I would get at Cambridge (I’m pretty sure no one at Stonybrook chose to go there over Cambridge). I don’t mean to whine, but this is my (maybe pessimistic) assessment of my situation.

Concerning the gap year, I already applied to some of the best schools in the U.S (MIT, Caltech, etc). They didn’t seem to care about my achievements in math or physics Olympiad, which is fine since the American system isn’t based on academic merit as it is in the UK or France. So applying to these same schools one year later will almost certainly get the same results; furthermore I would rather attend Stonybrook than doing a gap year because my sole intention right now is to dive immediately into studying math and physics. I don’t want to be sitting around for a year doing nothing.

As far as paying off the debt, I know very well that with a PhD in physics I could make A LOT of money on Wall Street (Citadel, DE Shaw, etc) or elsewhere. I could probably pay off all my debt in 3 years. But I don’t think I can just take a break and go into the real job world when my intention is to be in academia. Won’t I be penalized for that or lose out on opportunities.

Thanks again.

36

A gap year would allow you to apply for the merit scholarships at Gtech - guessing you applied after October 15 - or perhaps you did get merit scholarships there, hence the 25k. Or apply to any number of merit scholarships, as well as to look for the formulas used at different schools, choosing to apply to colleges that put limits on asset consideration compared to colleges that look at them (use NPC on Princeton and on MIT to see the difference), and in short make a list based on merit and NPC results.
Puzzled by NYU 's decision since the Courant Institute should have made you a priority admit with preferential packaging - did you express interest?
In the end, no, the fact you see the world through math or think through math… Even at such a high level, wouldn’t really make it more likely that you’d get into polytechnique, normale sup, or mines -ponts. The ‘concours’ directs everything and your ability to 'be formatted ’ is what will matter in addition to being brilliant. Many unusually brilliant minds rebel.
If you attend LLG, where will you go on weekends?

A shortcut would be for you to 1) ask Cambridge for a gap year 2) attend LLG with permanent address at your weekend address, which is thus established 3) start at Cambridge in 2017 with a European address and thus no worries about international fees and debt. OR 1+2 but apply to a wider variety of colleges.

37

“A shortcut would be for you to 1) ask Cambridge for a gap year 2) attend LLG with permanent address at your weekend address, which is thus established 3) start at Cambridge in 2017 with a European address and thus no worries about international fees and debt”

MYOS - I’m afraid that’s not going to work. An EU citizen needs to be resident in the EU for the previous THREE years, not just one, in order to pay domestic fees. And residence purely for educational reasons is discounted anyway.

This link is for LSE, but it is based on government regulations:

http://www.lse.ac.uk/study/informationForInternationalStudents/feeStatusClassification.aspx

38

You are only able to borrow the federal student loan maximum ($5,500 freshman year, $6,500 sophomore year, $7,500 junior year, $7,500 senior year) on your own, and then only for colleges/universities that are approved for the federal loans. The rest of the 100k in loans will have to be loans your parents take out, or that they co-sign with you. Have they already spoken with their banks/credit unions, and have they been informed that they are likely to be approved each and every year that those loans need to be borrowed? What is their plan for paying that debt off if you are unable to do so? Will they carry life insurance and disability insurance policies on you for that amount of money?

Yes, we get it that you don’t like Stony Brook, but if you take a gap year you can track down places better than Stony Brook that won’t leave your family with an uncalled for level of debt and that won’t require twisting your life into knots on a second language.

39

In my firm, we have people with educational backgrounds from ENS, as well as Cambridge and Oxford, along with the IITs (Kanpur, Bombay, etc) and Tsinghua and Peking, as well as Harvard, Stanford, and MIT. All are extremely bright and impressive. The ones from CMU, GaTech, etc. noticeably less so. Nobody from Stony Brook.

I don’t think you can lose if you complete Cambridge or ENS, but your Trinity option looks safer than your prepa option to me. I’d take Trinity if I were you.

40

Life is now as well as in the future.

You have been caught out by the fact that you didn’t end up with affordable options and you don’t consider Stomeybrook a true safety, as you are not happy to go there.

You now need to rethink.

If Stoneybrook or a gap year don’t work for you by all means go to Cambridge. It will give you a brilliant education and allow you to focus on your passions - but you may need to adjust your timetable for your PHD and take a high paying job for a couple of years to make a decent dent in your debt.

It doesn’t seem to be such a big problem to me. You’ll be a few years older when you enter academia, that’s all.

Good luck with the decision. There are multiple pathways to get to the right place.