“You may need to adjust your timetable for your PHD and take a high paying job for a couple of years to make a decent dent in your debt… You’ll be a few years older when you enter academia, that’s all.” – That’s not a bad idea, @Longdistancemum
@MYOS1634 : NYU pisses me off a lot because my dad did his PhD studies at Courant, and I expressed a lot of interst in Courant specifically. And yet they gave me literally $0 financial aid!!!
Not sure what you mean by where will I go on weekends at LLG. I’ll have internat, so I live there during the weekends as well. Presumably I’ll be studying on the weekends, but if I do have freetime, I have all my cousins and uncles/aunts who live 5 mins away.
As far the “shortcut” you suggested, this is not something I had considered. It seems interesting but also a little bit stupid to do just 1 year at LLG so that I can achieve some crazy financial loophole and go to Cambridge that way. If I go to France, it should be because I am intent on getting into ENS and staying in France for 5 years.
@happymomof1 : to be clear, I do understand French. I am actually representing a Francophone country at the IMO (not France). I am just not fluent… But understanding math/physics is not a problem. It’s probably more the social life that would be difficult since I don’t french slang (argot). On the other hand, social life doesn’t exist in prepa, so thats not a problem either xD
@longdistancemum : that’s also an interesting proposal.
The bottom line is that, by the time I complete my PhD, it will be 7 years from now, if I do 3 years PhD directly after masters from cambridge. My dad calculated I’ll owe around $130,000 in loans. I’m lucky that I’m getting a degree in math/physics because these are fields which have the highest paying jobs (besides medicine and business). According to the US bureau of labor statistics, the median salary for “mathematicians” and “physicists” is around $110,000. Not bad, but I’m pretty sure they are using a broad definition of mathematician/physicist which includes goverment jobs, industry jobs, quants on Wall Street, etc. I should do some more research on the job prospects for research in theoretical physics specifically, which I think are not so great because there are very few spots and they are reserved for geniuses. Maybe the sputnik generation of physicists will retire and open up spots for the young guys and I’ll be able to make enough money from a university salary.
At this point my dad has accepted that I don’t feel ready to go to France, and even he wants me to go to Cambridge. It’s really a shame I didn’t grow up in France. I think the French system is special and would be really good for me if I felt more comfortable and confident about making a commitment to France. I really like the idea of going to ENS, which is perhaps the best place in the world if you want to be a mathematician (10 Fields medalists!!?!?!), and I think I would have a good shot of getting in there. (I say this only because the director of math program at a lycee in Toulouse who I met with said I would probably get in if I put in the work.) And after ENS I could do work for French government research organizations like CNRS or go work at IHES. I like France a lot (just spent a month there with my family, it was great), and the best part is that it would be free. I also have friends who are going to attend the same prepas as I would next year. The only problem is that France is a bit risky, and I don’t feel totally comfortable, and I might be better off taking the safer route at Cambridge.
I’ll also just repeat that a gap year is not something I’m considering. I might as well go to LLG for one year and transfer to Cambridge, which would be stupid, but free and better than doing nothing for 1 year.
In any case, the money I’ll be paying won’t be as disastrous as what many kids are paying at Ivies (50,000+ per year for an American bachelors - IMO not worth it at all). And I’m pretty lucky to even have these options at all.
Thanks again.
Check that internat is 7days - most international are 5days with the expectation you go to a host family on weekends.
You can apply to ENS after your bachelor’s at Cambridge btw.
@bitznbatzn If you are thinking you can transfer credits to Cam, you cannot unless you already have a BA and then you would only get credit for the first year. Also, CNRS salaries are abysmally low, barely enough for a family to live on.
@MYOS1634 : ok i’ll check to make sure but I’m almost certain that is not the case.
@alcibiade : CNRS is just an example. there’s plenty of places i could go afterwards.
@bitznbatzn I do think the limits of the French system should be known. Of course, I do not want to disparage the French system, in fact I respect it a great deal.
I hold Cambridge in very high esteem, indeed I think oxbridge offers the best undergraduate experience available anywhere for the right student - it is better than Harvard imho, where I was a student. We are going to my daughter’s graduation from Cam on Friday. She worked incredibly hard there, enjoyed it as well as had some crises. It was transformational, we couldn’t be more pleased with how she has grown.
At any rate, it sounds like you have some wonderful options, I would love to know what you decide (message me if you want when the time comes).
I’d do Cambridge. It’s a world-renowned school. I do know about the French system, and while the locals consider the Grandes Ecoles to be the equivalents of MIT, they’re not–they’re more like Cornell/Brown level.
^ So subjective, depends on the grande ecole, and not even really true (depending on what metric of undergrad education you look at).
@HappyAlumnus : I would beg to differ on the quality of grandes ecoles. It is clear from the previous discussion here why the grandes ecoles and prepa are top in math/physics (10 fields medalists, 15 nobel prizes, etc at ENS for example).
As PurpleTitan notes this is subjective anyways.
@alcibiade : Would you mind elaborating on what sort of “crises” your daughter had at Cambridge? I ask because initially my parents were worried about me going to Cambridge because it’s far away from the U.S and I wouldn’t have a “support network”. We agreed this would be a nonissue since I have family in Normandy and Paris only 4 hours away, and my parents are moving to France in 2 years most likely.
@bitznbatzn It was a combination of stress and anxiety, we think. The workload is unbelievably heavy and demanding, with it all culminating in the exam term at the end. She did not receive good support from psychological services, but her tutor and director of studies were accommodating and understanding. That was in her second year, she almost intermitted, then didn’t. Fortunately, she buckled down in 3rd year and met all of her goals, but it worried us for the entire year. She graduated with a 2.1.
So make no mistake: if you go to Trinity, you will find yourself in very strict competition - with yourself. This is a good article that should serve as a warning. http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/oct/06/cambridge-university-student-depression-eating-disorders
I also agree with you that the Grandes Ecoles are roughly at the level of any of the top world schools. It is only parochial chauvinism that motivates so many Americans to claim the contrary.
I agree the Grandes Écoles are on par with top us schools, with two caveats : research output and funding. But the learning conditions and students are absolutely on par with the best anywhere.
The prepa, however, is NOT on par with strong undergraduate experience in the US or the UK.
I have another question about the costs. I keep telling my dad, that the option to study in France was something that wasn’t even supposed to exist - it only came into existence based on a very lucky visit to a prepa in a city we weren’t even supposed to stop in (we were traveling in France). Also, Cambridge was not supposed to exist - I had wanted to go to MIT since 9th grade but then I learned about the program Cambridge at the end of 11th and decided it made more sense. So I might have well ended up, like most other Americans, with only American schools to pick from. In which case, even if I got into MIT or Caltech, I would have to pay the same amount of money as at Cambridge, right?
The average net price of an MIT education is 40,000 and even if extra financial aid brought that down to 30,000, that would still be 30,0004=120,000 for a bachelors. Cambridge is 45,0003=135,000 for a masters. So my dad keeps telling me that I should go to France because either he or I will be burdened with debt for the rest of our lives, and I believe him to some extent, but my response to him is that I would be no more burdened than an average MIT student. Are all the MIT students who plan on pursuing a PhD afterwards (and hence the loan interest builds up for another 3/4 years) gonna be screwed?
On another note, do you think Brexit will affect me in any way if I go to Cambridge. The pound is getting weaker, which is good for me, but Cambridge might raise their prices in future years in response. Also, I’ve read several articles about British science taking a toll because of Brexit, some speculating about a brain drain to the rest of Europe. I doubt that Cambridge will lose its reputation as one of the top universities in the world, but this Brexit business is making somewhat nervous. I don’t want to jump on a sinking ship, if you know what I mean…
Finally, would it be easier to try one year at Stonybrook/France and then go to Cambridge or is that hard to do. Certainly it seems stupid to do 2 years of prepa only to end up at Cambridge. It would definitely save on costs though…
Actually, it’s $40,000 with financial aid. Net price = costs after scholarships and grants have been deducted. Typically you can then deduct about $2,500 thanks to work study and $5,500 from federal loans, and work over the summer for $2,000 or so.
But depending on your family’s resources, your expected contribution would be anywhere from your loan/work study/job to 65,000.
Some pay the full $65,000, others don’t, depending on parents’ income and assets.
Caltech costs even more “sticker price”. Both have generous financial aid for families earning up to 200K with appropriate assets, but no merit aid (since all admitted students are worthy of “merit” aid.)
Did you run the NPCs before you applied? What were the results and were your parents OK with them?
Brexit will not affect you since you didn’t plan to use a French address as proof of residence in the EU to get the EU rate. Furthermore, I believe that European students will be “grandfathered” and will remain at UK rates for the duration of their course (received a note to that extent).
It may affect Cambridge in that the EU gave a lot of grants and subventions for scientists and scholars.
In the UK, you would start your program from scratch. So, if you did your year in prepa, you’d start as a first-year at Cambridge. If you did the two years and failed (like 90%), you’d still be starting as a first-year.
If MIT and Caltech are so expensive, how do the kids who graduate from those institutions and then go on to PhD programs afford the cost of undergrad? It seems truly impossible to me unless you are rich.
Secondly, I’ve been going on the assumption that grad school will be close to free. But then I checked the Caltech website and grad school costs 72,000 sticker price. WTF? What the hell is wrong with america…all these schools think they can bankrupt kids and impose on them an enormous debt at such a young age. Honestly if I wasn’t uncomfortable about the risk, I would go to France in a second.
Because 95% American familles qualify for financial aid at MIT or caltech or other top schools. Their students may take the federal loans ($5,500 freshman year) or may not (no-loans policy). These schools are among the most generous with financial aid. For families that make 250+K many feel what they offer is worth the cost even if it means spending a quarter if their income on their child’s studies.
(Many lower income families are in far less favorable circumstances.)
Did you run NPC 's? What were the results?
Did you apply for financial aid? If you did and the results were disappointing, did you appeal or what did they tell you?
Do your parents own a nice house they could take HELOC on? Rates are pretty good right now.
Grad schools have a sticker price. I don’t know why you thought it’d suddenly be all free. The fact there’s a sticker price doesnt mean students pay that. Any PhD worth attending will be funded, so that you won’t pay for tuition and will receive a stipend. Funding is entirely intellectual-promise-based : with a First from Cambridge you’d likely qualify. Your parents ’ income /assets would not be taken into account (except at Harvard).
But overall, yes the cost of college has taken off from reality in the US, in part because competition works both ways - to lower prices to match your competitor but also to increase them if you want to appear the same 'brand quality ’ as competitors that increase their price. In addition, colleges have found they need to market to typical 17-year olds, and what 17year olds like isn’t updated libraries and they can’t ascertain class size or percentage of tenured/tenure track professors, but rather. Cool gyms, lazy rivers, suite style dorms, swanky student unions… Stuff that looks good and is easy to understand.
“If MIT and Caltech are so expensive, how do the kids who graduate from those institutions and then go on to PhD programs afford the cost of undergrad?”
They receive enough aid to make it, for them, doable even if it entails some debt. If you don’t qualify for the FA, your family is in the upper percentiles of earners, and you’re expected to have the resources to pay. Quit whining about America. Despite being (on paper at least) well-to-do, you would be eligible for significant FA at many schools in the US. You just chose not to apply to those schools, dismissing them as inferior. That’s sort of your problem, not America’s.
This is what I still am baffled by.
Yes I DID apply for financial aid at all the placed I got into. My parents have both been unemployed for the past 6 years, and we don’t make anywhere close to 250,000 per year (we have no income!!!). Yet we received no financial aid at Berkeley or the other UC’s (not from California) and none from NYU (despite the fact that my dad did his PhD studies at Courant and that I’m from NY). At Brown and CMU we received 30,000 off from the 70,000 sticker price, but 40,000 is still unacceptable for our financial situation. Finally Stonybrook was the best at 10,000 net price and GeorgiaTech was also generous at 25,000 net price. Unfortunately I stupidly denied GeorgiaTech and I only hold deposits at CMU and Stonybrook now.
My parents appealed multiple times at CMU and Brown, and they basically said that’s the best they can do (nonsense, they are rich beyond belief).
It looks like we are in the disastrous position of not being poor enough to receive significant financial aid and not rich enough to pay for the schools on our own.
Sorry don’t know what NPC or HELOC is.
OK so basically grad school is free.
Clearly I am not a typical 17 year old. I couldn’t give a crap about cool gyms and “lazy rivers” (what’s that even mean?). I just want to study math, physics intensely amongst the best students and not bother with all the bs.
This situation is catastrophic.
@katliamom : “If you don’t qualify for the FA, your family is in the upper percentiles of earners, and you’re expected to have the resources to pay.” We did qualify for FA, but not a package that is acceptable. Evidently, we are not in the upper percentiles of earners. As I said multiple times, my parents haven’t generated any income for the past 6 years.
FYI I applies to 25 schools in the U.S. I was rejected from most, and the rest screwed me badly with financial aid, save Stonybrook and Georgiatech. I didn’t dismiss any as “inferior”.
I think I have the right to complain about a country which screws its youngsters for life just because they want an education - its youngsters who are its future and its only hope.
No one should be in the situation I am in. I’m pretty decent at math and physics, top grades, etc, my family isn’t rich or even close to rich, and I applied to schools outside the U.S as a backup. I’ve asked tons of people for advice and did lot’s of research. I think I tried pretty hard to ensure the best possible outcome for myself, and I can’t blame anyone for my current situation other than the American government and education system.
Now I don’t want to rant as it’s not productive or helpful for anyone here, but please don’t be condescending and tell me to “stop whining”.