Where will a Music Supplement have the most impact?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>Sorry about this very long post.</p>

<p>Daughter is currently a high school junior who will be applying for the college class of 2016. We need help narrowing down the list of schools that are currently under consideration. As you will see, the schools being considered are some of the more “prestigious”, highly ranked colleges. But, the number one criterion for a college to be on this list is not prestige, but rather perceived affordability. Our income is such that substantial financial aid will be required for my daughter to attend a private college. Based on my research, these colleges potentially offer the kind of financial aid that will be necessary to enable my daughter to attend. If I am wrong, she will attend a UC or CSU.</p>

<p>Obviously, in order to benefit from financial aid my daughter needs to be admitted. I have researched these colleges and have a general understanding of the difficulty of getting into each of them. One thing I am unsure of is the impact of a music supplement. I assume that it varies greatly from one school to the next. So, I am basically looking for information regarding at which of these colleges my daughter’s chances for admission might be most enhanced by a music supplement. </p>

<p>Background: Daughter plays the viola. In addition to playing in the school orchestra and in high school musicals, she has played in a county youth honor orchestra for the last three years and with the Southern California Honor Orchestra for the last two years. She does not play at conservatory level, but she plays very well and we believe that she will be able to make a good cd to submit along with the Arts Supplement. She does not intend to major in music, although a minor is possible, but she wants to attend a college that has a decent orchestra. The opportunity for lessons is also important. Academically, daughter’s grades are mostly As (one or two Bs thus far) and the classes have been fairly demanding (currently 3 APs, one IB, and Honors Pre-Calculus). Her SAT score is in the high 2200s. My daughter’s interests lie in the humanities. </p>

<p>The following is a list of liberal arts colleges currently under consideration. Daughter has visited the first 13 and although she liked some of them more than others, they are all still possibilities. Obviously there are a lot of things to consider when narrowing down this list. But, the focus of this post is to learn more about which of these colleges fits my daughter, musically, and where her music supplement might have the most impact. For example, the Williams website seems to go out of its way to encourage prospective students to submit arts supplements and I have interpreted this as a good sign for my daughter. Does anyone with experience with Williams agree or disagree with this? It also seems that it might be better if the college does not have very many music majors and would therefore need to depend on non-majors to fill its orchestra. Anyway, any constructive comments regarding the music programs at these colleges, considering my daughter’s background, will be most appreciated.</p>

<p>Barnard<br>
Williams<br>
Swarthmore<br>
Amherst<br>
Wellesley
Bowdoin<br>
Vassar<br>
Pomona
Claremont McKenna<br>
Middlebury<br>
Wesleyan<br>
Smith
Mt Holyoke<br>
Haverford
Skidmore<br>
Davidson<br>
Bates<br>
Colby<br>
Grinnell</p>

<p>Have we overlooked any schools you think we should consider?</p>

<p>One further question, this one about Stanford and the Ivy League colleges. My daughter has visited all of them, except for Cornell, and at this point would love to attend any of them. Based on what I have learned, they, generally speaking, offer the best financial aid. So, I would also love for her to attend one of them. The big obstacle of course is being admitted. Unfortunately, it also seems (based on what I have read in other threads) that an Arts Supplement will have little or no impact at any Ivy. While this is certainly true, at least at my daughter’s playing ability, at Yale and Harvard, what about the “lesser” Ivys, such as Penn? For example, I noticed that for the current year the Penn orchestra only has 5 violas. My first thought was that they could use some additional violas and that a violist might have an advantage if he/she applied for the 2011 school year. But, I suppose this fact could also be interpreted as indicating that Penn does not give any preference to viola players and that is why they only have 5 this year. So, I do not know how to interpret the fact that its orchestra only has 5 violas. Anyone have an opinion on this issue? Does anyone have an opinion as to which Ivy (or Stanford) might potentially look most favorably on an Arts Supplement filed by my daughter?</p>

<p>Sorry again for the long post. We certainly do not want our daughter to apply to 20-30 colleges, so we are just looking for information that will help us come up with a more reasonable list of schools. So, where might a music supplement by our daughter make the biggest impact on admission?</p>

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<p>Count, without knowing which specific supplement threads you’ve read, I will link these two specifically</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/979845-another-send-music-supplement-question.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/979845-another-send-music-supplement-question.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/738525-how-strong-music-ec.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/738525-how-strong-music-ec.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>While the second tends to run more towards the Ivys, it’s well worth the read. There are some anecdotal examples of what some perceive as the effect of a supplement on their own, although without re reading it, I can’t recall if any of those on your list were mentioned.</p>

<p>If you do a name search within this forum, most of the schools will have a passing mention, and you may well find an example or two where it may have helped for a non-major.</p>

<p>I have no broad enough knowledge to comment on the effect of a supp at any of those specifically on any individual app, or on any individual institutional policy. In general, it will pay to have a good grasp of the strengths of the department, whether it can field it’s own orchestra, or is part of a consortium that comprise a combined orchestra, or if is an orchestra supplemented by faculty, community, and in some cases as part of a professional regional. </p>

<p>The thread started by SimpleLife suggests some of methods of contact and ways to position a supplement to best benefit a student with a strong interest, and potentially enough talent to have a supp have an impact as a non-major.</p>

<p>There is plenty of conservatory level and pre professional talent at any given Ivy. There can well be imbalance. From my experience, a violist of the background you describe will be welcome within any of Ivy undergrad performance ensembles, but in all probability a supp it is just a data point among the many other factors used in determining admissions.
Some music departments may have a bit more sway than others, but without first hand knowledge of the specific internal workings, whether it is enough to tip a maybe to a yes is pure conjecture.</p>

<p>The smaller, non-Ivy programs with strong string emphasis, chamber, quartet programs may have an impact in an admit, and even a small scholarship. The only way I know of to at least get a feel would be to have some significant conversation and demonstrated interest with the music department.</p>

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<p>Although I can’t speak to where the music supplement will have the most impact, I can tell you that both art portfolios and musical supplements are an important piece of the application for the private colleges you have listed as well as the Ivies. We have a very good friend who is an admissions counselor at Penn - I just had a lengthy discussion with her yesterday, (now that this year’s process is complete), regarding the increased quality and quantity of both art portfolios and musical supplements that are accompanying applications. She joked about how the Penn orchestra is going to be better this year than it has ever been and that everyone seems to have caught on that music and art show passion and perseverance vs. how many extracurriculars one can cram on their resume. My D has a very good friend who is a freshman at Williams this year - his music supplement was definitely given serious consideration when he applied; however, he also wrote a blog throughout high school, started a group made up of his fellow high school musician friends that performed at area nursing homes and rehab. units on the weekends, etc., etc. The admissions process is getting harder and harder, (according to our friend), as the grade points, SAT scores, extracurriculars, and the number of APs students are taking keep increasing, so anything that differentiates your child and gives them a better picture of who she is and what her passions are only helps. Our S took 16 AP classes in high school, (he was the male PA State AP scholar for his graduating year), had a 4.0 unweighted GPA, a 2300 SAT score, earned his Eagle Scout at 15, had extracurriculars and leadership out the wazoo which included starting a club at his high school that did well enough to make it to the national competition its first year, along with participating in all of the musical groups as a percussionist and drum major. Three students from his high school were accepted to Princeton his senior year and one was waitlisted - he was the waitlisted one. My point is that it can be a very fickle process and to figure out how a specific college weights a music supplement this year could be completely different next year depending on the applicant pool. “You just never know” is what we hear over and over again in reference to the process and how it works from year to year from those going through it and from one which is a part of it.</p>

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<p>CountMonteCristo –</p>

<p>My S applied to seven of the schools on your list. He will be attending Williams, in large measure because of its music offerings. </p>

<p>He sent a music supplement to each school. This consisted of (1) a CD (nothing fancy, just S playing his instruments), (2) a music resume and (3) selected repertoire. We firmly believe that the music materials played a big role in his admissions, particularly to Williams. </p>

<p>I see only positives in sending a music supplement, if your child is reasonably accomplished. It will not detract from the application. At minimum, it will portray a side of your child that is more than stats. At best, it will put her application “over the top.”</p>

<p>I would be happy to provide more details privately. You can send me a PM if you are interested.</p>

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<p>One of the hardest parts of the arts supplement process for both parents and students is an accurate picture of where their student’s talents fall within a national (and international) pool of competition. At least with grades and test scores, there are benchmarks of admission cut-offs and published percentiles of stats of admits. If you fall within the ranges, on paper you’ve got a shot.</p>

<p>Average talent, a high school principal chair, even all-state selection is not an indicator. Kids with competitive youth orchestra experience, audition based summer intensives, local, regional competitions have a better idea of where they may fall across a broad base.</p>

<p>The wider your circle of knowledge of the incredible pre-college musical talent that is out there the more realistic the view you will have of if the supp is good enough to potentially have an impact.</p>

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<p>My husband is an active Colby alumnus. He does not think the music opportunities there are very good for an instrumentalist (he was a singer, not a music major, and had a lot of performing opportunities.) Great school though. I think there are others on your list that are better choices for music.</p>

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<p>honestmom-</p>

<p>Thank you for sharing your husband’s opinion regarding the music opportunities at Colby.</p>

<p>agmom-</p>

<p>Thank you for your general comments regarding music supplements and specific comments about Penn and Williams, two of the schools my daughter is most interested in. We did not think much of Penn (my opinion of Philadelphia was not the best) prior to our tour of east coast colleges last summer and would probably not have visited if we didn’t fly into Washington, DC (because of a cheap airfare). We were all very impressed with the campus during our visit and everything we have learned since then has only increased my daughter’s interest in attending. Although there are good reasons for us not to do so, if my daughter applies ED anywhere (instead of EA) it would, at least at the present, most likely be at Penn. Everything we know about Williams, except perhaps its isolated location, is also positive and it is also very near the top of my daughter’s list of colleges. Although I do not know if my daughter will ever be good enough, the opportunity to be part of the Berkshire Orchestra is very attractive. Thank you for sharing your son’s experience applying to Princeton. I hope that wherever he ended up that he was happy with the result.</p>

<p>Linde-</p>

<p>I will pm you regarding Williams. Thank you for your comments regarding the submitting of a music supplement. I think that I agree with you that submitting a music supplement can only be a positive thing to do. I know that there are schools, Yale comes to mind, that seem to actively discourage the submissions of arts supplements. But, the chances of admission are so small anyway the risk of submitting seems to be too small to be a consideration. I think that you have to do everything you can to try and separate yourself from other applicants and we intend to have our daughter submit a music supplement to all colleges she is applying to that accept them. So, we intend to “roll the dice” and let the “chips fall where they may”.</p>

<p>Violadad-</p>

<p>Thank you for your responses to this thread as well as the thousands of contributions you have made to other threads, many of which I have read over the last year. Your habit of linking other threads is very helpful, although I sometimes get lost 4 or 5 layers in and have difficulty getting back to where I started. I think I have reviewed most of the other threads regarding music supplements, but it never hurts to re-read them for things that I might have been overlooked. As you have suggested I will do a college name search in the music major forum. It also looks like we will need to have some direct contact with the schools themselves.</p>

<p>Yes, knowing about the music departments and ensembles is important. For example, my daughter is very interested in Barnard, but they do not have their own orchestra (Barnard students can audition for the Columbia Orchestra) and so I think that a music supplement will not help much with Barnard. You are right about our personal inability to evaluate our daughter’s playing level. I am just not sure it is as important for a music supplement as it would be for those auditioning as a music performance major. I think that for a music supplement we just need to make sure that the level of playing is good enough so that whoever listens to it would like to have her as part of the orchestra. Obviously the better the cd the more support my daughter might receive from the music department in the admissions process. So, it is important that she produce the best cd possible. But, in the end she plays at a certain level and we will just have to live with the results. The community orchestra my daughter is a part of is affiliated with a local college with a good music program and since my wife and I are very involved with the orchestra we are very friendly with the conductor and string coaches, who are all affiliated with the college. I have no doubt that they would help us with evaluating our daughter’s playing level, if requested to do so.</p>

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<p>The issue of music and admissions has been debated, does it have special weight as an EC, etc, and from what I can tell, the answer is unclear. I can give anecdotal evidence, my child was practicing one time several years ago and an alum from a major ivy heard him playing, and he was active in recruiting to the school as an alum, and he told our child that when he was ready for college, give him a yell, that the school in question was trying to build up its music program/orchestra. I can also tell you that a lot of kids in top level pre college music programs end up going to ivies, usually not in music, and the belief is being in the program helped them. </p>

<p>One of the problems is that there are a lot of high level students who do the music route in this belief, that it makes a difference (or rather their parents do), many of them at high levels, and it makes me wonder how effective it is when so many are doing that, when they have the high gpa,SAT’s, etc plus music, if there are a lot of kids with that, how effective is it? It is kind of like the idea that having a ton of EC’s helps a student stand out, when so many are doing it. As an example that has been raging all over the place, there is the example of the infamous ‘tiger moms’ who as in the book by that name, insist their kid play either the violin or piano with college admissions a factor in pushing the kids to do it. If in fact there are a lot of kids who fall under this umbrella, who have the requisite GPA’s, APs, SAT’s and so forth for the high end schools, and they all are playing violin or piano, what would distinguish them? I could see the admissions people, like with a ton of EC’s, wondering if the candidate liked what they had been doing or did they do it because it looked good on a college CV (for the OP, I am not saying this as commentary on your D, I am talking in general). </p>

<p>From my perspective (which is all it is), I would tell you that the effect it has may range from nothing to more then a bit, a lot of it depends on the school and frankly what year it is. If the school that year suddenly decides its music program is flagging and in your D’s case needs violas, it might help her, if they have a solid orchestra and a ton of violas applying, it may not matter at all, or if they decide their music program isn’t important, same thing. I would take the attitude that it can’t hurt her and send it in without putting too much weight on it either, or trying to figure out where it will help most, no one could tell you that, and if she does get in some place and gets a nice package of financial aid, there will be no way to know, unless someone at the school talks which is doubtful, about whether or not the music made a difference (one reason? Schools where music may not necessarily weight heavily in admissions and aid, may want that impression to be out there; after all, if they can attract top notch students who can make their orchestra program better to apply in numbers in that belief, it would benefit them). BTW, conventional wisdom says that orchestras generally need viola players, which is true in that the viola tends to be less popular then the violin, but there are also kids out there in the ‘high end group’ who switch to viola with that in mind…so it may not work in that way for the viola, though I don’t know for sure. </p>

<p>My suggestion would be to figure out which schools your D would really be interested in applying to (I agree with finding out about the musical environment at the school is important, if D really wants to play, that can be found out) and apply and submit her music supplement. I realize there is the cost of applying and so forth, but it can’t hurt to submit the music supplement, and then if she has applied to schools where she would want to go, and gets in and gets a good package, it doesn’t matter whether music helped or not. Trying to target schools assuming they give preference to musician students works against you, on the other hand, because you may apply to schools assuming they give preference to musicians, when they don’t, and you could eliminate a school that otherwise might give your D what she wants and needs (in terms of aid) assuming they wouldn’t…</p>

<p>BTW, if you D chooses Barnard and wants to have a musical experience, I highly recommend the New York Youth Symphony program, it goes all the way through 22 and is a top notch program,literally at a professional level, and they play 3 performances at Carnegie Hall each year (if you want to hear, go to their website at NYYS.ORG or go to WQXR’s website under the young artist showcase program and search for NYYS, they have been on the program a number of times and the archives have recordings you can stream), and they also have a chamber program…best part, if you get in, it is tuition free other then a relatively small fee (that can be waived if it is a hardship). The orchestra is intense, they have rehearsal 4 hours each week, so it is not a light commitment, but it is a fantastic musical experience IMO:).</p>

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<p>Musicprnt-</p>

<p>Thank you for the information about the New York Youth Symphony program, it sounds great.</p>

<p>Thank you for your thoughts. I agree with what you have stated and I was thinking the same thing; that it will not be possible to know what a particular college will necessarily be looking for next year. It’s just that when you add the UCs (as well as USC and perhaps an Ivy or two) my daughter is planning on applying to, I could see her applying to 20 or more schools. As a result, I am trying to figure out how to eliminate some of the colleges on the list. Last summer, in a separate attempt, we visited 19 colleges on the east coast to see which most appealed to my daughter so that we could eliminate some schools from consideration. We had the disadvantage of visiting when school was not in session, but in the end my daughter could see the advantages of attending almost all of them. Only Tufts, since it seemed too similar to a UC, came off the list. This is not to say that she doesn’t have preferences, she certainly does, but she is practical and knows that all of these schools are, generally speaking, very difficult to get into and she also knows that she will not be able to attend without substantial financial aid. So, she has to, at least to some extent, keep her options open.</p>

<p>I understand that you are not implying otherwise, but having our daughter heavily involved in music has not been part of some grand plan on our part. My wife and I have no musical background (except she was forced to play the accordion at a young age). Our daughter began playing the violin one day a week as it was required as part of being a fourth grader in our school district. When she was in the fifth grade a viola playing cousin, then in the ninth grade, came to live with us for a year. This cousin convinced our daughter to switch to the viola. But, I made her wait for a year, to make sure she was serious, before I would pay for lessons. My daughter enjoys playing music and we have never had to make her practice. Ok, we do sometimes have to remind her. She so much wanted to be part of the orchestra for her school’s musical this year that she is learning the violin since there is no viola part. We have made it clear that while we enjoy hearing her play, she can quit anytime she wants. But, as part of her college search she has excluded any college that will not allow her the reasonable opportunity to continue playing music while in college. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, involvement in music does seem so stereotypical and does cause one to wonder about the motivation. For us it doesn’t help that my daughter is half Asian (Japanese). </p>

<p>While her involvement in music has not been part of some grand plan, her various musical activities represent the vast majority of her extracurricular activities and we do want to present them in the most favorable light possible. It looks like my daughter will be applying to a lot of colleges.</p>

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<p>Just a quick note on the 5 violas in the UPenn orchestra: without knowing the size of the orchestra, the number doesn’t really tell you anything. The quantity within in each string section is a ratio. In the 80-100 ish orchestra size, the breakdown runs 16 first violins, 14 seconds, 10-12 violas, 10 or so cellos,and 8 contrabasses, 1-2 harps. These will vary a bit, and can change drastically given the works being played.</p>

<p>5 violas in an orchestra may not indicate a shortage. Without knowing the size of the organization and the section breakdown it’s hard to tell if there is an imbalance or shortage.</p>

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<p>CountMonteCristo, if you are interested as you say in Penn, feel free to PM me. I teach there; my parents and husband and I all went there (none of our kids do), and I know a bit about the music program/department/opportunities for undergrads.</p>

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<p>Violadad-</p>

<p>According to what I found online, the breakdown for 2010 is as follows:</p>

<p>1st Violins- 16
2nd Violins- 18 (plus 3 alternates)
Violas- 5
Cellos- 10
Double Basses- 5</p>

<p>Glassharmonica-</p>

<p>Thank you for your offer. I will pm you regarding Penn.</p>

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<p>Looks like they could use a few violists.</p>

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<p>Count-</p>

<p>I want to apologize, in my post I never meant to imply that your D was ‘using music’ the way I was talking about, it sounds like she really loves it. I was talking about a common phenomenon out there, where in some people’s minds music like EC’s and such is a ‘golden ticket’, not about her, and again I apologize if it sounded like I was being critical of her, wasn’t at all.</p>

<p>As far as deciding which school to apply to, unfortunately there is no magic bullet there and it comes down to deciding where she would like to go. In theory applying more places increases the odds of getting into any one of them individually, assuming the person is not reaching way beyond their ability, but to me that seems like a lot. Likewise, if she thinks she wants to go to an ivy, it may be better to focus on the school rather then its category and see what she likes. Columbia is going to be different then U Penn in some or many ways, Penn is going to be different then Yale or Harvard or Brown in other ways, they are all elite schools that attract a lot of bright kids, but it depends on what you are looking for as well. If it were my kid, I would advise her to work on writing a list of what she wants and why she wants it, and then work from there. For example, is there a specific field she thinks she wants to pursue? If so, a non Ivy school might actually be a better choice. Does she want a rural campus? Then a dartmouth for example might be better then wasting time applying to Columbia or Penn, since they are both Urban, if that is a decider. From my own viewpoint, applying to 20 schools where some of them aren’t a fit simply to try and get in might backfire, if the environment doesn’t work for her. I understand the temptation, but there are no guarantees; however, from reading the posts of high octane kids applying to the top colleges, while some are devastated they didn’t get into an ivy, it seems like they tend to end up getting into other high end schools, so chances are that your D will probably get into a good school even if she applied only to 10 or whatever. </p>

<p>Again, I recommend, unless someone tells you differently, to put her music on the supplement. One thing I can think of to help differentiate her musically from the ones doing it because the parent thought it was a ticket to a good school, have her write about her interest in music as one of her essays, and if she has interviews, find a way to bring it up and talk about why she likes it and so forth. Talk about going to concerts, if she does, or a piece of music she found revealing, or a great experience, or even not so great experience (don’t know if they still do it, but I remember one college essay asking to talk about a less then stellar moment and how I dealt with it…)…My time hasn’t come yet, I am not looking forward to the audition process and the angst of which schools to audition for and then the waiting game…:)</p>

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<p>Violadad-</p>

<p>That’s what I was thinking. Of course it may be that having a certain number of violas is not important enough to allow it to affect admissions decisions and that is why they only have 5.</p>

<p>Musicprnt-</p>

<p>There is no need to apologize. I never took your comments to imply that my daughter wasn’t really interested in music and was just using it to assist with college admissions. That is why I stated in response to your earlier post: “I understand that you are not implying otherwise”. I guess my remarks were made so that others who might be reviewing this thread would understand where my daughter is coming from and that her interest in music has not been driven by college admissions.</p>

<p>I appreciate all of your comments and advice and I am thankful for the time you have spent replying to my posts. I’m not sure when your family will be going through the audition process, but I hope it turns out well for you. Even though my daughter does not intend to be a performance major, there is a possibility that she might have one live audition. This is because Stanford (I do not know of any other schools who do this) allows live auditions as part of an Arts Supplement. Anyway, I am happy that my daughter will not have to travel around the country attending a number of auditions. It sounds like a very stressful experience.</p>