Where you go to school, does it matter?

Parents Forum
21

By “the hard sciences”, do you mean math, statistics, and perhaps physics and geology? Because the largest group of science majors (biology) may not have as good job/pay prospects at the bachelor’s level, due to large supply compared to the number of biology-specific jobs at the bachelor’s level.

For business, it appears that the name of the school is significant at the top end of the prestige scale. Otherwise, there appears to be a difference based on subarea, with some subareas finding much better job and pay prospects than others which seem to be little different from most social studies majors.

That does depend on the industry. In some industries, the “name brand firms” recruit widely for new graduates, but are more selective in the hiring process. In others, they focus on elite colleges, depending on the colleges’ selection process to do much of the selection for them.

22

I have a friend who sent one kid to a top notch NYC prep school and the other to the local high school. She said writing was much better taught at the prep school - turn around for papers was quicker and there were more of them. But there were other things our public high school did much better. She ended up being happy with the choices each kid made and they both ended up at the University of Chicago.

23

Let me use the football analogy. Schools that get the best high school recruits tend to have the most players in the NFL. Doesn’t mean you can’t be drafted in the first round if you don’t attend a top football school (re: Carson Wentz), it just makes it more improbable. Its not hard to imagine that if you get the best high school students your going to have some pretty good outcomes. Harvard doesn’t make students great, the students make Harvard great.

24

I like the hospital analogy. Do we evaluate the success of a hospital based upon the health of the patients it admits? Any hospital can turn out healthy patients if that is the only type it allows inside. Those hospitals that are willing to admit patients with health problems, provide care, treatment and nurse them into a healthy state by the time they leave…those are the hospitals truly transforming people.

Obviously, you can have a wonderful and successful experience at at a most selective school. Incredible professors, resources, peers, everything one would need to thrive. But I am a firm believer that fit is the most important variable in a successful outcome rather than ranking or prestige. I think those who had a miserable experience or unsuccessful outcome at an Ivy or equivalent went because they thought that is what they were supposed to do, got caught up in the brand and landed somewhere that wasn’t really right for them. There is more to college than the classroom and academic environment. Kids need a place where they can enthusiastically plug in and engage in the community, feel comfortable in their own skin and explore, growing as a person as well as a student.

As such, I believe where you go matters very much but not necessarily from a traditional outcome measure such as earnings. To me a successful outcome is when a student finds the place that allows them to explore, make mistakes, change course and discover something new. It doesn’t stifle or intimidate…it encourages and excites. It provides an atmosphere where the student can transform into a new and improved version of his/herself. So of course it matters where you go to school, but to me, not in the way the question is traditionally asked.

25

@CU123 Love the football analogy. Take it one step further, Joe Paterno used to say it’s easy coaching great players because they want to be great. Now that said, he put systems in place that supported further development, leadership and excellence (at least in football).

I believe that’s also true on college campuses. Top schools are getting the top students (by and large). So they also have to have systems in place to retain those students. Top professors, research opportunities, facilities, resources, etc. It’s a vicious circle that feeds itself. Top kids go to top schools, They access top resources. They get jobs or grad school offers from best in class companies / schools. They pay forward by contributing back to their school and the beat goes on.

I believe you can get anywhere from anywhere if you’re that person. Self driven, no excuses, seek things out, out yourself out there. Guess what, that same kid will do quite well from a top school too! The difference is the launching pad. There’s just something special about being an environment where success is the norm. Why do you think 'Bama sits at the top every yr?

26

“An interview with one guy, and some hand-waving generalities, isn’t quite a rigorous analysis of the question.”

His book has a lot more detail and rigor, but he got Buffet to say he learned the same at Wharton as Nebraska. That’s all you need really. It would be like me coming up with a new physics theory and getting Steven Hawking to endorse it .

"Harvard doesn’t make students great, the students make Harvard great. "

Well wealth and athletes really distort the notion that Harvard or a similar college has the best students. You do not have to be a “great” student to get into Harvard if you’re an athlete or have wealth. The lawsuit data show that. In fact if you’re an athlete from a wealthy family, those are like two hooks at Harvard. And add in legacy, and well that’s a 90% chance of getting in.

“Now that said, he put systems in place that supported further development, leadership and excellence (at least in football).”

I respected a lot of what Joe Paterno did at Penn State but looking the other way when he a sexual predator on his staff put some doubts about his leadership ability.

Why do you think 'Bama sits at the top every yr?

Do you really want to go there? Let’s start with payments to players to get them there and boosters to keep them paid, the inappropriate use of greyshirts, getting rid of players who don’t contribute to the program, optional classes and on and on. Big time college football is corrupt.

27

Yes, it can and does matter. But… to whom, and how, can vary widely.

28

This is a year old, but the information is very helpful. Georgetown’s Center on Education and the Workforce has found that generally what you study matters more than where
https://cew.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/Fiverules.pdf

https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/5rules/

https://www.slideshare.net/CEWGeorgetown/five-rules-of-the-college-and-career-game-97417626

They say, " College is less about what institution you attend and more about the returns of individual college programs"

Can we stop beating this dead horse topic…

29

My daughter’s friend went to Harvard. Yes she’s obviously smart…but I don’t see her doing anything that is so outrageous compared to those from lower ranked schools. She spent 2 years doing research and is now working in a small clinic. I am not sure what she does…she was a bio major and has not been to grad school. My D loves her…they have intense conversations…but right now this Harvard grad isn’t doing anything that has any kind of “wow” factor compared to others from “regular” schools, and that’s ok. She’s 25 and enjoying life after college.

I know another Harvard grad who spent 2 years working in a dance school in town after graduation and is now at one of our local state schools getting a degree in education. She’s happy…therefore she’s successful.

My coworker’s daughter graduated from Duke and now works for a nonprofit making less than $35,000 a year (she’s very happy which in my opinion makes her successful). My other coworker’s son graduated from a top LAC (like Amherst) and works in an office while he figures it out. His first job for 6 months was in retail selling sporting goods.

My cousin’s daughter graduated from a top LAC and is still sitting on the couch, not doing anything.

My aquaintance’s son graduated from an Ivy League school. He is finally employed because a mutual friend hired him. He never had any internships.

My close friend’s son graduated HS as #4 (35 ACT) and attends a top university. He almost failed his first year. He graduates in May and hopes to go to grad school for social work.

One neighborhood kid graduated from an Ivy and is working in a lab…right next to somebody from one of our state schools.

Another neighbor’s kid graduated from a top 10 LAC…and then headed straight to one of our public city colleges to get her social work degree.

I am not taking anything away from these young adults. They are all figuring it out, doing what they enjoy, etc. Life after college (and in college) can be challenging in many ways. Many worked their a$$es off in school and need to recharge before making their next move…and that can take awhile.

The schools I referenced are some of the best schools in the world…and I will absolutely acknowledge that there are kids from these schools who are successful (however we define success) straight out of college…and beyond. Did they get a great education? Absolutely!!! Were they exposed to brilliant minds and intellectual discussions? I would say yes! But…there are also successful kids coming out of lower ranked schools…and these kids also had experiences and opportunities similar to those from higher ranked schools. To think otherwise is naive. I agree that there are some posters with HS kids who act like authorities…yet they have not been through the college process, have little experience with different schools, classes, discussions, professors, internships, interviews, research positions, issues that arise during the undergrad years…and life after graduation. (Btw…I am not implying that life at Harvard is the same as life at SUNY Binghamton. It’s not).

We can all learn something from Bruni’s book…Where You Go Is Not Who You’ll Be. My daughter read it in high school.

And now it’s time to take that four year experience and see where it goes next. As for right now …she’s working for a bit next to Yale grads…and kids from Quinnipiac.

30

So I am not sure this means anything. I went to a local college in Detroit that unless your from the area you never heard of it. Went to community College my first year.

I live in Chicago in a nice known area. We all own houses mostly. All my neighbors went to all the Ivys, Wharton, UChicago,Michigan, Wash U etc etc All with advance degrees.

Everyone gets along and all come over for BBQ in the back yard.

But I have noticed that the people that went to the Ivys tend to be more vegetarian…?

Discuss…

31

Hmmm…

One of my kids eats meat…she attended undergrad at a regular school that nobody has ever heard of. My other child attended a school that is well known and respected…and she is a vegetarian.

You may be on to something LOL ?

32

Let’s not forget that undergraduate education is much more than pay check generator.

33

Where you go to school DOES MATTER since it carries with you for the rest of your life irregardless of financial ROI. There are unquantifiable ROI that’s pretty much ignored in topics like this. Now that the college football season is in full swing, watch the millions of alumni screaming and hollering in front of HDTVs rooting for their college. What kind of ROI is that? Oh, gotta go and tune into ESPN. My college is on in a few minutes!

34

@Twogirls. That’s an interesting summary. From my observation, a substantial percentage of recent grads go through a settling out or sorting out stage after earning their BA/BS/. They may wait before going to graduate or professional school because they just need a break. They may try one job and then another to see what they really like to do, or to try to apply college-based skills in new ways.

Careers are segmented, and do not always come directly from the college degree.

Both of my kids went to work immediately after graduating (from well-known and highly ranked colleges). The one with a BA in economics started out at a major management-consulting firm. He found the job to be boring. But he stuck with it for a few years while beginning a “nocturnal” job playing online poker, until the online casinos were outlawed. He turned his nocturnal focus to other things, including finding a way to monetize his life-long interest in sports statistics. He then quit his initial consulting job and took a full-time position as a writer and analyst for a sports blog. He earned a reputation from that, and has since made a career analyzing and writing about sports and politics. His formal education was important for developing tools and skills. But it took some years for his career to get into orbit.

My daughter went through a similar trial-career period, after graduating with a BFA in industrial design. In addition to making/designing things, she began to write about environmental issues for blogs and magazines. She had first taken an interest in environmental matters from NON-art courses in her BFA program. Then after 4 or 5 years in the economy (at about the time the economy went into a major tailspin) she decided that she could use another diploma. She devoted many months to reviving her skills in math (took a college course), self-prepped for the GMAT, and got into a top-10 business program. Now she has an MBA on top of her BFA, and she has a very good job promoting start-ups and entrepreneurship with a focus on sustainability. Her formal training, her credentials, and her abilities all mattered to getting where she is now. But like her brother, she took some years to establish a career.

35

The college years come with all kinds of twists and turns…as does life following graduation. Careers change…interests change…there is not always a straight arrow. I always get involved in these posts…against my better judgement. Students can be happy and do well at all kinds of schools…this doesn’t take anything away from schools such as Harvard. I have repeatedly stated that these are among the best out there.

I do feel that if you are a superstar on full merit at Pitt…you can have just as good an experience as the kid at Emory. And we all have our own definition of “good experience.”

36

Well said and is the “correct” answer to the OP’s question…

37

Just want to mention that Bruni had a pretty elite educational background himself that helped him to arrive to the conclusion that where others go to school does not matter. From Wikipedia:

Bruni was educated at The Loomis Chaffee School,[1] an independent boarding and day college preparatory school in Windsor, Connecticut, followed by the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, from which he graduated Phi Beta Kappa in 1986 with a B.A. in English. He was a Morehead Scholar and wrote for the student paper, The Daily Tar Heel.[3] He then attended Columbia University’s Graduate School of Journalism, from which he graduated second in his class with a master of science degree in journalism, and also won a Pulitzer Traveling Fellowship.

38

“Do as I say, not as I do”…hmmm…

39

Bruni’s book, understandably, is highly selective in the use of examples in order to drive his point, which is, you don’t have to go to elite colleges in order to succeed. But, we all know that. However, choosing which college to attend isn’t only about ROI or how successful you’d turn out to be. No one knows that. It’s also about lots of other things. By the way, Bruni, if he so chooses to, could write another book, “Where You Go Does Matter” and come to different conclusions since there are enough examples to carefully cull from.

40

I have 2 kids in their twenties, one graduated from a very elite college and one from an average state flagship and both are doing pretty well for their ages. I can successfully argue on both sides of this dispute.