Someone looking for durability and reliability may prefer a Toyota over a Mercedes-Benz, simply due to less need for repairs. Indeed, all of those 20 year old Corollas and 5-15 year old Priuses, even in high income/wealth areas, suggest that many people with money just want their cars to work without drama.
How difficult is it to get into Toronto or Waterloo (or equivalent for those in other provinces)? Given their much larger size and Canadaâs much smaller population, it may be that they get a much larger swath of students than the much smaller âtop [private] schoolsâ in the US.
Perhaps they may be more analogous to state flagships in the US in terms of employer recruiting attractiveness, at least for such areas as engineering.
The car analogy is a very poor one and not comparable to a 4 year college education; something that stays with you the rest of your life and is really the building blocks of your future career. Much more important and complex that some silly analogy of car brands (material objects). I actually would have expected better from the CC community but maybe this is your best argument for why it doesnât matter where one attends collegesâŠsighâŠ
While every school has an overall general level of selectivity it varies according to intended major and you have to apply to at least a faculty if not a specific major. The most recent data I have is for 2016. The overall high school admissions average for UTSG and Waterloo was 90% (based predominantly on grade 12 marks. Iâm not sure what that would translate to in terms of US GPA) with an overall acceptance rate of about a 14%. For Engineering specifically it was 94% which translates to an acceptance rate of 9% for U of T and 14% for Waterloo (because Waterloo accepts more Eng students). In addition to these 2 schools in Ontario there are 3 more schools that are equally selective for admissions, UWO (11%), Queenâs (13%), and McMaster (13%). They also have highly regarded engineering programs with admissions acceptances in the range of 10-13%. 1st year admission numbers range between 4,300 (Queenâs) to 6,700 (Waterloo) students per year.
I agree that it matters but not in the way many of these post imply. It isnât about the meaningless USWNR ratings, it is about finding an environment where a student can thrive and be pushed to grow.
I would not be where I am without the education and oppportunities I got as an undergraduate at Beloit, Which is why I will always argue that a CTCL school is the best option for a student.
@Data10
Iâm not following your comparison. A NMF started the award by scoring high on a standardized test taken by over 4 million students. The rest of applying is also straight forward.
As multiple articles state, applying for NSF fellowship starts with years of research, likely published article(s) and mentoring through both PHD and GRFP applications (tons of program research, sending professor at a prospective R1 institution introductory emails with current R1 research PI mentioned, point being itâs a small world). I hear often from our current applicant as deadlines approach. Graduate school connections through current major professors PIs are very important. Funding fellowship application workshops are staffed with former recipients, almost like clubs. Itâs not a statistics calculation, but after yearâs of research, high GPA and perseverance itâs all about access.
Total numbers are not necessarily relevant without perspective. Harvardâs population is 10x that of Caltech and both schools are elite institutions well represented in NSF awards.
This is second article: https://massivesci.com/articles/grfp-disparity-nsf/
@jmnva06. My daughter transfered as a junior to Beloit. Itâs been an amazing experience and opportunity for her. She graduates this year. So I agree fully.
Outside of CC, most kids donât pay a lot of attention to fit. For financial reasons, they donât apply anywhere thatâs not an in-state public.
Unsponsored NMSs is an arbitrary example of recognition that is obviously dependent on the student (and other factors), rather than college attended. The NMS test is taken before students attend colleges. Nevertheless, the list of colleges with the most unsponsored NMSs looks extremely similar to the list of NSF fellowships, as well as the most other recognitions. As noted 4 of the 5 colleges with the most NMSs also were among the 5 colleges that had the most NSF fellowships, even though the criteria and process are completely different for these two recognitions.
The key reason why these recognition lists look so similar is that they primarily depend on the student, rather than college selectivity. College selectivity is correlated, but not the primary driver. A highly selective college that admits a large number of stellar students is expected to be near the top of such recognition lists. As such, a highly selective college being in the expected position near the top of a recognition list is not good evidence that where you go to school matters.
You could go to a somewhat selective school, but not graduate- like Steve Jobs. I read he attended Reed College and even though he did not graduate, he credited a calligraphy course he took while there for the typography used in the first Mac. Did it matter which school he attended? Yes? No? You might say yes it matters to those of us who love our Macs.
Oh and I suppose if you met your spouse in college, you could say, yes it really matters what school you go to 
More accurately, their primary fit criterion is affordability, often limiting them to commutable community colleges and state universities. Those in sparsely populated areas may have difficulty finding even those options.
Itâs best to look at the classes offered by the specific college, rather than make assumptions. The options for highly rigorous classes depend on college size, department size, whether the department has a grad program and availability of those grad classes, among many other factors beyond just concentration of excellent students.
One thing I found surprising during my time at Stanford is how students typically took the most rigorous courses available during HS, yet students generally took the least rigorous option that was standard in their field during college. For example, Stanford offers some really great options for students who are interested in a rigorous proof based approach to the intro math sequence that get a few dozen students most years. These numbers are dwarfed by the ~800 students who took math 51/51A in Autumn quarter, which is the standard math sequence for tech students or the ~200 students who took the slow math 21 sequence (not recommended for techy majors). Similarly students who are not co-terms or in other graduate programs rarely chose to take graduate level classes, which are readily available to upperclassmen undergrads. Based on course selections, it wasnât clear that many students wanted to take rigorous or advanced courses.
Perhaps this relates to students attending elite colleges generally focusing on what they believe is desired for the next level. Students who believe colleges want to see huge number of AP classes during HS may take huge numbers of AP classes. Students who believe employers or grad programs donât care about rigor within major and instead want to see all Aâs may avoid taking more than the minimum standard level or rigor, to reduce risk of a grade below an A.
@Data10. Interesting. All my friends that went to say Harvard told me it was really hard to get it but kinda easy once they were there. They said if you were struggling in a class it was almost like they came to you to offer help back in the 80âs⊠Itâs like everybody was getting âAâ s as I was struggling at my no name college⊠LolâŠ
But I have to say these are some of the smartest people I know alsoâŠ
This is a common subject. Everyone can only go by their experience. Mine, got at least 5 high paying jobs ( usually 20-100% more than my same age peers). Was it based on the school? Likely yes. Was able to move into different careers ( people seemed again based on the college that I was smart enough to hire and take a chance). Gave me lots of confidence( came from low socio-econ family). Was able to raise $ to start a business and be invited to many things which would not have been available otherwise.
For me, the answer is a huge yes. That also assumes the student has excellent social skills and work habits.
The folks who say it doesnât matter often have no idea of the reach and resources of the top tier school. It opens doors. Forever.
Not every student had great career success. But in some industries look around and you will see a statistically significant majority from a handful of places.
I think it has been said but think itâs the combination of the school and the applicant. If the student puts in the effort and is active and does some good stuff on campus that can be a very powerful combination.
I think the issue is that there is an assumption about who has these resources and what is a âtop tierâ school.
Equally, folks who insist it does (and that they are the only places that do) often have no idea of the benefits of attending a lower ranked school on a top competitive scholarship and the opportunities and connections they can offer. (If you are discussing the elite schools, you have to compare to students who would be admitted. Otherwise, you are comparing 2 completely different groups.)
I donât think anyone discounts the advantages of a top school. I think what people are saying is that people disregard that there are perks that offer exceptional opportunities to top students at lower ranked schools and dismissing those outcomes of those students as too rare to discuss. Not really. It is the type of student that is being discussed. Competitive. Internally motivated. Top performer. Those are the traits both groups share.
(âBuying the studentâ is used as a pejorative by some posters on this forum.)
@Happytimes2001 Your assumption would be wrong in my case. I went to two top 5 schools. I work in an elitist profession and I have lots of brilliant, wealthy colleagues and clients who didnât go to top schools and even with high achieving kids, donât pay for top colleges (they do pay for private K-12). So thatâs where Iâm coming from. I have yet to meet an adult for which where they went to college made much of a difference.
My adage is, its not what stuff they have at the college⊠its what you do with the stuff they have at the college.
At the very top schools, Itâs not possible to do that type of comparison because the 2 groups donât overlap. The very top schools have 70%+ yields. Harvard had a 83% yield. Of those who turn down HYPMS, itâs mostly done for other highly ranked schools. Those who turn down HYPMS to attend a public college, excluding UCB which is world class in its own right, are too small a group to be statistically significant.