<p>My dad and I have an ongoing argument. He tells me that success doesn't depend on what school you go to, it just depends on what you do once you are out in the real world. I agree with this statement to some degree. He then gives me all these examples of his friends who went to unimpressive colleges who are very successful. </p>
<p>I argue that although I agree with him, I think it is different today than it used to be. I feel there is a lot more information about the college admissions process available to high-schoolers (the internet), and as a result, where you go to college today is a better indicator of intelligence/work-ethic/success than it used to be. </p>
<p>While a lot of this depends on the industry (an entrepreneur's college doesn't matter, a investment banker's college does), what are your thoughts?</p>
<p>Your last sentence is correct, that if you want to go into IB, the college matters the most of any field I can think of. Though I will say that I know of several kids who went to southern Flagships who are working on Wall Street.</p>
<p>I think in some ways it matters less. Back in the day, I had a family member who would only hire employees from a certain school. It just made his life easier. There was no easy way for a small business to widely recruit highly skilled employees. That is certainly not the case now.</p>
<p>Where most students go to college is largely determined by finances, not intelligence or work ethic. Many bright students go to obscure local colleges because they need to live at home, because they got large aid, etc. You can scour the internet all day long for information about colleges, but if you don’t have the money to go, all the consumer knowledge in the world won’t help.</p>
<p>I suppose the generic bachelor’s degree means less than it did 50 years ago because so many people have it now. So one might argue that the signaling value of prestigious institutions has increased as the the scarcity value of a generic college degree has declined. But this is only in the most general sense, and there would be all kinds of exceptions.</p>
<p>I still believe that in most industries it doesn’t really matter, but some things did factor into the decision as a family. Not only did finances matter, but success after graduation did too. DS chose a place with excellent career advising and a powerful alumni network. He could apply for paid internships starting his freshman year, many with alumni. The school hires 30+ students for summer research in order to better their chances in med and grad schools. I contrast it with a family friend that went to a comparable LAC in our state that doesn’t have that strong alumni focus and he has struggled to get jobs. </p>
<p>So much is in the student’s control once they are in school, though. Good grades, excellent ECs, internships, work experiences all help someone set up for success. But if you aren’t getting in front of people that are hiring it is a hard road ahead.</p>
<p>I think there is some truth to both your father’s statement:</p>
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<p>and also your statement:</p>
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<p>I think the bottom line is that if you are aggressive and talented enough, you can overcome disadvantages from not attending a top college. </p>
<p>However, you can attend a top college and still not be aggressive and talented enough. </p>
<p>Personally, I believe that college is just one step in a long road, and there are many steps where you can falter and many steps where you can catchup and accelerate a career.</p>
<p>I’ve seen people go to run of the mill colleges for engineering, get accepted to a top IB school for a fully funded PhD program in engineering, and then immediately start hitting the career fairs for IB, leaving with a Masters and an IB job. It doesn’t make the school or the professors happy, but if it’s lucrative enough, people will do anything, and I can’t fault students who do this (though don’t come looking for an engineering job from me if you fail).</p>
<p>I think it matters less. My parents (in their 80s) and their friends are obsessed with what school someone went to. For my dad it would make a huge difference in his hiring decision (he would assume that the person who went to Michigan was going to be better than the person who went to Michigan State no matter what, for instance). I think our society has become more egalitarian and with a few exceptions (investment banking and strategic consulting being about the only two I can actually name), you can go to an awful lot of schools and still achieve a very high level of success. So for the most part I side with your dad.</p>
<p>Now… there are colleges out there that do not offer a high quality of education. But they aren’t in the top few hundred on the US News rankings, I think.</p>
<p>I suspect you are trying to get your dad to spring for a $60K per year education and he does not think that is worth it. You can find plenty of good options for less (and it is his money, after all).</p>
<p>I don’t know if it matters OVER ALL less or more. There was a time when going to ANY college put you into a selective group, and to graduate from the most selective private schools, put you in certain “old boys’ clubs”. Not so much anymore.</p>
<p>Unless you are connected to some jobline, I think that for most jobs, your course of study and specific skills are going to make the difference in ease of getting jobs. Yes, getting a degree from certain schools means a much better chance, or even a chance at all for certain investment banking type jobs, but in the scheme of things there aren’t many of those and without connections, you have to be the top of the top to even get a toe hold in there with a BA alone. You want to teach at a public school, yes, going to your state program is going to be a plus. There are certain jobs where there are preferences to certain school, but not always for those from the most selective schools.</p>
<p>I think the good old boy network is shrinking. Maybe it’s who you know to get your first job but meritocracy does kick in in many industries including IB.
I would say that geographic advantages exist for some industries like banking or film or even high tech.</p>
<p>Even with Ivies and Top 20, not everyone out there will even recognize the name of the college or have any idea of the actual standards or the quality of the experience. Sorry to say. And, it’s worse, the farther away you get, geographically.</p>
<p>If you want name recognition, ugh, for most bosses out there, go to a school with a big sports rep. Or even the name of a state in it. More people can recognize the state names than, say, Tufts, Williams or Swarthmore.</p>
<p>As for IB, young friend recently won that game. What won her the position (less than 1% shot) was her particular skills through the vetting process. NOT the name of her college, (though it is impressive.)</p>
<p>I grew up in the wealthy suburbs with 2 siblings, while my parents grew up in small towns with 4 siblings. This is what is forming my opinion on past vs. present and I guess it is probably inaccurate. </p>
<p>I was also looking at the increased competitiveness in admissions (declining accpetance rates, etc.)</p>
<p>Isn’t going to an elite school today more impressive than going to an elite school 30 years ago? I would think employers would recognize this and favor these students more.</p>
<p>Twins127, for every employer out there who might be impressed that a candidate has graduated from an elite school, there are more who might sneer at it. Especially since there are more employers out there who have not graduated from elite school than have. So unless you are looking in fields where there are a lot of people running the show and more importantly doing the hurman resource function of screening the resumes, it could even be a disadvantage. </p>
<p>I iive in an are rife with ivy and select school grads, and believe me, many are un and underemployed. The young college grads getting the jobs at a living wage, the groups that stand out are those with specific skills and majors that are in demand in the job market and those who have family/connections in certain fields. And then, it doesn’t much matter where the kids went to school. My local public high school does not care where the student graduated from college, but they have to be well on the path for state certification to get one of the teaching jobs there, and they get 4 applicant for each positon. Not many if any ivy league hires there; those grads are teaching at private schools for half the salary and few benefits. That is the reality fo the situation. The kid who graduated from Local College with an accounting degree is doing a lot better than most of the kids who graduated with some liberal arts degree from an Ivy as well in terms of jobs.</p>
<p>In some industries it’s definitely true. But my wife’s company in finance has found some exceptional candidates from lesser schools that might not have been elite before but have become more competitive. Her best intern ever came from Michigan. When I was applying to colleges, it was a school where OOS B students went. Now it’s a school for A- to A OOS students. </p>
<p>In my area, engineering, only about 10% of the people who I call for a phone screen will ever get as far as an offer. Whether you get a call for a phone screen depends on a) whether your resume demonstrates interest and accomplishments on what we do
b) Your GPA
c) Your school</p>
<p>For more senior positions, your accomplishments are all that matter. </p>
<p>Basically, I get a pile of resumes and rank order them, and then start to call people until I think I’ve identified enough candidates to bring in for an interview. </p>
<p>I can tell that the economy is improving by the quality of resumes that I’m seeing. It’s getting harder to find the people I want.</p>
<p>I don’t think employers see it that way. Heck, an awful lot of hiring managers and HR people didn’t go to top schools themselves (so they DEFINITELY do not see it as any kind of advantage). They still take about the same number of freshman and graduate about the same number of students from those schools today as they did when your parents were in college. </p>
<p>What impresses employers most is how you present yourself in an interview, how you frame the experience you do have on your resume, and whether they think you will fit into their company and work hard. Even people who don’t go to top universities can have very good internships if they hustle for them, and that is also a key factor in today’s hiring process. My D1 went to an LAC ranked around #50 – during her college years she interned at the State department, for a senator, for defense department agenday, and had another internship for 3 summers that was ranked as a top 10 internship by Princeton Review. She got a very good job after graduation, was promoted after less than a year in her job, and is doing very well in her career. She is also very well positioned for grad school (graduated Phi Beta Kappa) if she chooses to go. Stop worrying about prestige and start focusing on doing really, really well whereever you end up.</p>
<p>It was listed in my high school guide as needing an 85+ average. I’m not making this up. It has greatly improved it’s stature over the last 35 years. It definitely wasn’t on my radar (90+), though it probably should have been. Neither was Carnegie Mellon for that matter.</p>
<p>Indeed this is the case. But you have to get the interview. It all depends on the size of the pile of resumes and the time budget of the hiring manager. There is some credence to the notion that if you want to a top school then you must be smart. It definitely gives you an advantage. It doesn’t mean that if you didn’t go to a top school than you aren’t smart. </p>
<p>Now you could certainly lose that advantage in two seconds with poor interview skills, but in some industries it does matter. And you could certainly overcome not having these advantages by being awesome in what you have done. But you have to get the chance.</p>
<p>I can tell you as a hiring manager with 25+ years experience that your undergrad college has zero weight whatsoever on if you get picked for an interview. None. Zip. Zero. Total fallacy. </p>
<p>We care about where you have worked, what you have accomplished, and fit.</p>
<p>Even from a top school, you can lose it if you have no job experience- and the next guy does. This talk just shows how subjective it all is.</p>
<p>And, sometimes, in the long run, a job from a “prestigious” company doesn’t allow the resume building that a smaller one can, where your responsibilities and challenges can be broad and deep. Not everyone’s getting into Google or Microsoft or IB.</p>