In this case, your first priority is to make your financial plan so that you know how much you can spend for school (high school and college) for each kid.
Things you do not want to do:
Spend lots of money on private high school and then tell your kid that s/he cannot go to the colleges s/he wants because there is no money.
Spend lots of money on one kid and then have the other kids asking why they are more limited on college choices for money reasons that the first kid.
Promote goals relating to expensive colleges with implied promises to pay for them, then back out on such implied promises in April of their senior year.
Applicants are judged in the context of their school. A child in a school offering limited APs is not being compared to a child in a school with many APs, or none. Each applicant is assessed in the context of his or her school, and yes, by how they compare to other students at the same school.
If your son takes all the math clases offered at a public high school, then takes math offerings at a local CC, that will be noticed more than a kid who was a student at an expensive prep school who took all the advanced math offerings like many other kids would do. Yes, prep school kids go to elite schools, but the elite colleges are all about diversity these days. They want a big variety of kids, of all kinds of ethnicities, and from all kinds of schools, (and home schooled too.) If you really want to increase his chances, move to the Dakotas, and I am only half joking.
I disagree that it is easy to predict, by HS graduation, where your child will fall in terms of academic rigor and performance by looking at their middle school performance. All through middle school, my kid hung out with the “smart kids.” By the time she graduated high school, of her original group of about eight girls, only three (including her) were still taking the most rigorous courses and getting top grades. Many of the kids who were in the GATE program in primary school achieved very little academically in high school. Some kids get heavily involved in sports, or art or drama, or whatever. Some kids realize in high school that they actually have to start working hard to continue to do well, and they don’t want to put in that much effort. Kids prioritize what interests them (if they are allowed to,) and they are still changing and becoming who they are. It doesn’t reflect on their intelligence but it might reflect in their grades. As @gardenstategal says, these are very formative years.
IMO, it is dangerous to consider paying for private high school when you are in an area with a good high school. College is even going to be more expensive in five years time. What about grad school? You are far better staying in the district, maximizing whatever math and science educational opportunties there are, and letting him be a big fish in a small pond. I would ask for a meeting with the guidance counselor at the high school to discuss options going forward.
Otterma, I would look into the calculators. We would hate to reduce his options for college by spending on prep school now. You have a really good point you make when you say “Remember that nobody cares where a PhD biologist went to undergrad”. We have considered this too when thinking of college that he may be better off getting into a school that will give him a scholarship for undergrad so we can save money for a PhD for him (if it does turn out that he still wants one after undergrad).
Adlgel, that’s what I think that you will have good chances as a top student in your school wherever you are (public or private school), but may not do as well if you are not one of the top students. Having said that however, I think fit is important too (if not more important) for the overall well being of the student for the four years they are in high school.
The school issuing the PhD in Biology is likely to care where the applicant went to undergrad. From there, their employers will care where the applicants PhD in Biology came from.
If you don’t do what’s reasonably possible to position a student for early success, “making up ground” is difficult and statistically unlikely.
Wow, ucbalumnus and Lindagaf and others …you have given me a lot to chew on, I have a lot to discuss with hubby. I really appreciate you sharing your experiences. I am now leaning strongly towards keeping him in public and looking into outside enrichment since our finances are limited unless he miraculously gets a merit scholarship. I will start by meeting with the high school guidance counselor.
EyeVeee thanks for you post, I will still aim to provide him with opportunities that will help him to be a competitive applicant down the road but will see how we can do that while keeping him at the public school. I will see what the guidance counselor says.
@calvinethobbes The trick here is that there is only one person in the entire world in your son’s situation. You read this site long enough and you start to think that “my kid will never get in”. Statistics, scores, activities…it never ends.
Then you read that the colleges want “good people”, “well rounded” students, and how “individual” the admissions process is.
It’s all rolling dice…so do what feels right.
Oh yeah…one last thing: every parent lies about everything. 50 points on the SAT here… 0.2 or 0.3 on a GPA… almost none of its real.
PhD programs often do care about the applicant’s undergraduate school (but mainly in terms of strength in major, not overall prestige). However, PhD programs should be funded, so you should not have to save money to pay for him to study for a PhD after his BA/BS graduation (but he obviously wants to avoid large debt for his BA/BS studies).
I have to agree with the posters saying that a 6th grader should not be formulating college lists at this point.
But to answer your original question - is it better to be in the top 10% at a public, vs lower ranked at a private? - the answer is it really depends on the schools you are comparing. At many publics, yes you do need to be in the top 10% to have a realistic shot at the tippy-top schools, but at some privates (i.e.; Horace Mann, Andover) and even at some publics (i.e.; Stuy in NYC), 30-40% of the class is going on to the tippy top schools. To be fair, that number is driven by the selection process those schools have, as much as it is by the curriculum and rigor, but you really need to compare individual schools to answer your specific question. Look at the college matriculation data for the schools you have in mind. It would be telling to check out their naviance Sara as well, though that is probably not available for public viewing.
This question comes up a lot and the semi-consensus seems to be colleges aren’t transparent about how the high school factors into their admissions decisions. Some posters argue colleges recognize the increased rigor of a prep school education. Others argue schools don’t want to penalize students, who have usually no choice in where they go to school. Others argue admissions is more impressed by the student who gets the 1550 SAT at an under-performing school, rather than some elite BS. Who outside the adcoms really knows? It’s clear a high percentage of students at top BS matriculate at the top colleges, but how many of them were hooked as legacies, development admits, children of celebrities or politicians, or star athletes?
From what I have seen, elementary and middle school were walks in the park. High school has been very challenging and requires lots of work. In 6th grade my D effortlessly did extremely well. Now in 10th, she has to work hard for most of her good grades. If you are in a good school in a good district then chances are your child will be challenged. If not, find ways to provide enrichment. Enrichment costs less than private tuition.
That being said, there are some top private schools in my city that send large percentages of their students to top colleges. One factor is that they have more attentive guidance counselors and college counselors who start preparing kids starting in 9th grade. You will also find counselors with close relationships with some admissions counselors at some colleges. From what I have heard even our public HS has some special relationships with certain colleges. At top privates it’s even more so.
If your son is a top student at his future HS and does big things in his spare time (ECs) and tests well, he should be fine. Like someone else said, consider moving to the Dakotas if you want better odds getting into an Ivy
I can give my 2 cents as someone who is a senior now at a relatively prestigious prep school now (100 kids).
One huge upside regarding college is the counseling office. My school has 4 counselors, which means each counselor is only responsible for 25 kids. They have more time for meetings, can write better recs, and know the kids better than a public school, where a counselor might be responsible for 200 kids.
The top 10% of my school does very well in college. The past few years, the top 10% (10 kids) has pretty much entirely gone to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, or any other school of their choosing.
The next 10% still does very well, mostly going to the ‘lesser’ ivies or other very competitive schools.
The third 10% usually does not get in to ivies or other super selective schools, but they still do very well.
The area where I think private schools do better than public schools is on the lower end of the class. Kids from my school have had a C average, awful test scores, and no extracurriculars but are still able to get in to a decent college because of the connections and reputation from my school. Obviously no one plans to be in the bottom 10%, but if something goes wrong it is nice to know that your school will still fight for you.
Lastly, my school does not publish rank to colleges. I know my rank for internal purposes, but it never goes to colleges. Most colleges will have a general idea of where I fall from past years, but it isn’t like my rank is being used against me because it is never published.
Thanks wisteria100, roesthlisburger, citymama9 and douggy91 for your input. I think what I am hearing is that there is really no clear cut answer to my question. It sounds like if he stays in our good public high school and enriches his learning with outside programs and possibly outside counselling he should do fine. It will also be a win-win situation for the family since we will have sufficient funds for any college he gets into and will not shortchange his siblings.
I have told him all this and he gets it, he is also excited at the possibility of Caroline Bradley scholarship but understands that chances of getting it are slim.
ucbalumnus I just re-read your post. Thanks for reminding me that we shouldn’t have to pay for his PhD funding since he should be funded for that, that helps.
My daughter is a Senior at an average public high school with 325 students.
She is applying to highly selective colleges, I let you know in three weeks how it worked out.
The two biggest factors as I see it, 1) class mates to challenge you 2) guidance counselors.
They say you are the average of the five people around you. She is fortunate that there are 5-7 very bright, motivated students in her class, many of whom are on the math team, or science trivia team along with her. This has helped her pursue a “most challenging” schedule at her school. She may not have taken AP Cal as a Junior if no one else did, I believe four of her class mates did. Our high school does not offer AP cal BC. So she takes it online at school with one or two others this year, to give you context of our school.
Guidance is short staffed to say the least. She had a friend who took AP Cal. AB Junior year, and take the following course at a local college, senior year. She never got credit or had it listed properly when applying to colleges because the paper work get messed up, partially because the college had a different name for it. Buy the time it got fixed all her college decisions had been made. She did fine by the way.
I became my daughters part time college counselor. I spend too much time on this site, but have helped her craft a balanced list. And this is what I did, I called her guidance counselor in the middle of Junior year and asked a few questions I knew the answer to just to get on his radar so he would begin to take notice of my daughters transcript. Senior year I met with him with my daughter at the school for a meeting, in which he looked up her transcript and I asked if she would receive the most rigorous designation, and after looking at her courses he assured us he would. I also asked about how to word one of her accomplishments, my daughter still likes to make fun of me over this, but he didn’t realize she was on an academic team that won a pretty big competition. Do I think we got equal counseling as students from a private high school? NO, not even close from what I hear from those in great public and private schools, but this way she did not get lost in the shuffle.
Where our ORM daughter will end up we have no idea. Do we worry a lot yes we do. But we will do it again.
I cannot say anything because I do not know much US college admission. This is all new to us as both parents came from Korea. Three years ago our daughter wanted to apply to prep school, she scored very high in SAT more than 1500 as 7th grader. When we saw the fee we were very apprehensive with cost. Daughter wanted to go because she would have exhausted her LPS math curriculum. Therefore without any expectation, daughter applied and was offered an admission in only one prep school. Other places she was wait listed or rejected as when school asked we told them that the cost of attending prep school is beyond us. Why they rejected her we have no idea. Need based aid was very generous in one prep school.
So far she is taking a very rigorous academic load. And she is not alone. There are kids who are pushing her hard and she is pushing them hard. She learns from the kids who are in senior classes and they help her in math competitions. I can see that she is in top 10% in school but where exactly can not say.
Not all prep school kids are taking this hard course load and but she is not all alone by herself, there are many in her shoes. Our LPS is very good school district but she loves it as she says class discussions at the prep school are very lively and she has critical mass that open her mind to new thinking.
She is now drifting towards more humanities, even though she will major in math/computer science, or may be economics. I can see that she is now taking more risks and teaching us to take more risks than we would have.
Our family still ask where she will end up and worry about $$$$$$ needed for college, we have now second one just accepted to boarding school on M10. Why this one got into many prep school as second kid is similar to our daughter, we still have no idea. This is a new journey and we will report as we see it opening in front of our eyes.
@Douggy “[The top 10% of my school does very well in college. The past few years, the top 10% (10 kids) has pretty much entirely gone to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, or any other school of their choosing.]”
But many top 10% kids do not take very hard course load, some are maintaining top10% by taking less rigorous academic load. I think colleges must be looking at the rigor of academic load and maintaining the grades in that hard course work load.
Assuming that it is affordable, I would encourage you to send your son to private school as long it is the independent, academically challenging, prep school type. It is not about some future goal of sending him to an Ivy league, it is about maintaining the interest and momentum that he currently has. Two year of boredom at a public school will kill his interest in the subject and that is a very difficult to regain. He may learn bad habits such as being able to easily pass classes without studying (or worse).
College will take of itself. The chance of being admitted to an HYPSM schools is pretty low even for extremely talented students. Being at the 75th percentile at a top prep school is going to be better than the 90th percentile at a regular public school. Private schools do not rank anyway.
@calvinethobbes We were faced with a very similar decision with our oldest son. Ultimately, we choose to send him to the prep school which is one of the tops in California. The small class size, opportunity to belong to sports/clubs/robotics, advanced courses and, yes, gateways to elite colleges, all played a part in our decision. The kids who graduate at the tippy top of our large public HS do awesome, however, those below the top 10% don’t fare very well in college admissions. At my son’s prep school, the median ranking of colleges is 29th, the average ranking is #39. There were approximately 20 kids, NOT in the top 10% who went to top 20 schools! That shows that colleges look at the rigor of your HS; while they may not hold your son’s inability to take some courses (not offered) against you, they are not going to penalize the kids who are able to take & excel in multivariate calc or Physics C or Organic Chem in HS.
A big factor in the success of our prep school placing kids into high ranking universities (IMHO) is the complete lack of college counseling services the public school can offer compared to our school. Kids are pretty much on their own for college help. I’ve come to realize that a big part of our tuition is that there is a college counseling staff of 4 counselors, each have about 25 students ONLY that they work with. Needless to say, my son’s counselor KNOWS him & was able to guide him to proper level schools. When our son was touring Dartmouth 2 summers ago, the tour guide was the SoCal rep – once the rep found out my son’s school, he asked him “Who’s your counselor, Jasmine, Terri or Bob?” That shows you that Dartmouth KNOWS our school & students (& 3 kids went to Dartmouth last year out of a class of 125; 2 were not top 10%). So, definitely check out the level of cc at any prospective HS.
Also, many small prep schools (like ours, with 500 total HS students) don’t rank. To rank would hurt their students’ chances of getting into college because colleges lose points on the USNWR rankings if they admit students under 10% rank. When high schools don’t rank, that isn’t counted against the colleges.
Lastly, we love the family atmosphere of our small private school – so much that we moved over our 2 other kids in MS. They are so generous with FA that we have not had to dip into college funds/529s to send them there. Don’t be put off by sticker price at prep schools – many have great FA if they want your kid!