Which Overrated Colleges are on the Way Down?

@Creekland : I’ve been posting about these issues for many years. I believe after some point, USNWR rankings and prestige just are not measuring academic quality that well and perceptions of quality have been conflated with things like selectivity (only natural…however, once a school is already fairly selective, let us say median SAT of 1300, I always thought: “What really makes folks think that instructors are going to change their methods of teaching and culture of teaching simply because the high achievers became even more high achieving”. That has never been an incentive for reform. There are too many elements causing inertia including the increased desire of students for cushy living situations, dining, an ultra vibrant social life/party scene, yet the ability to maintain very high grades in addition to the increase value of “bread-making” research by faculty. I do believe that the so called two way contract of non-aggression spoken about in higher ed lit is a very real thing that even occurs at elites, some more than others. Students and their parents, at these costs, are customers after all).

Also, if you read anything, note that schools have a different type of rigor. Oddly there are many “whiner” schools where there are tons of complaints about grade deflation and “being hard”, but when I go investigate, it doesn’t compare well to what I regard as rigor, at least “relevant/good” rigor. I find that many students are just complaining about having too much volume of content (versus an HS course) and having to regurgitate it. This definitely goes for something like biology where lots of instructors still employ that sort of “bad” rigor. I found that this pattern was more rampant in some departments(and their associated “elite” school) than others. And then I started looking into funding for STEM curricula investments and renovations and was not surprised that they were a) not there to be seen or hadn’t been listed for a grant in forever (HHMI is one of the big organizations funding such efforts). Whole life sciences (and even chemistry) departments can away with non-sense so as long as they have marketed a school well and have convinced students that the level of their education is similar to other similar caliber or better schools. The students are in a bubble so don’t have other reference points. From what I’ve seen on these forums and just in general, it looks like super highly ranked schools (most in the top 10) have more “conscious” students who may indeed contact a friend at another Ivy/elite school and inquire about and even compare course materials.

Some schools don’t have that culture and can only compare a course to internal reference points, which if fortunate may set a decent bar. However, for some weaker departments in UG education at a school, it may be a much lower bar than the student realizes. All the student sees is: “I am having a harder time making an A than in HS” and it may have nothing to do with cognitive complexity of the material or assignments. Outside of schools overloaded with pre-professionals, many “whiner” schools without the type of course rigor to match appear to have bigger party cultures and more distracting social elements that may perhaps make everything “feel” harder than it actually is. The threshold for “pain” is less at such schools and perhaps instructors at such schools in certain departments may recognize this. Many instructors basically just give in and say: “Okay, I will just give you this type of rigor because it will still yield the desired grade distribution and people will complain that it seems hard but not unfair” (unfair in this case = instructor requests far more than regurgitation, low level applications/applied memorization, basic understanding of ONLY material that was explicitly presented. The bar for “unfair” is set low at some places).

I get the feeling that teaching cultures and the type of rigor dominant in some departments and schools does somewhat reflect campus life and student culture as well in addition to the orientation of the departments’ faculty and administrators. You can tell which cultures have not really changed but so much with increased selectivity, because not many older teachers are changing their methods to challenge the higher IQ students (and these higher IQ students still react very adversely to being challenged differently than in the past), and junior faculty that are much younger are by and large refusing to make changes based upon the positive trends in education (and education research). And perhaps they are right to be cautious. I have looked at some course websites where the instructor gave the same caliber assignments and exams in 2015 as they did in like 2008 or before and there were only mild or no increases in exam averages. In addition, if the instructor wanted to write one lower average exam, it didn’t take much of a change in the level or distribution of problem types to drive an average down by 10 or more points. If I saw that as an instructor, and was say…a biology teacher that traditionally “challenges” students through content/regurgitation overload, and was on the fence about integrating more problem solving elements and experimental interpretation/data analysis, I would probably have to pass on changing if I am a research faculty.

@bernie12 One thing I like about certain schools is that they teach students to think - or assess their thinking skills. Regurgitation is necessary to “speak the language” (as I tell my high school students), but it’s essentially memorization of words to make us appear smart (sciencese or mathese). Being able to use it by understanding the concepts is the true measure of learning.

Many intelligent kids (or adults) love the stimulation/challenge of using the material vs merely learning it. It’s those students I’m trying to get more schools in my mind to suggest. There are oodles of the other type.

Based upon what you said in the thread ucbalumunus linked and what you’ve said here, it appears you think very similarly.

What’s sad at the high school level is we’ve become so focused on setting bars - rubrics - “meet this, get that” we quite often lose the actual learning and just go with memorization. Then, as you pointed out, many get really miffed when they hit a good professor at a college. This is NOT how they’ve been brought up!

Don’t even get me going with math. Our school had a war in the math dept a few years back - calculator based vs not. (I’m in the latter group - learn MATH in math class at school. Calculators can be used in science or wherever later.) The calculator group won though. (sigh) Now that some time has passed I’ve had kids in a normal level Alg 2 class not be able to do 2x100 in their head, not realize they can drop ending zeros after a decimal point (assuming sig figs aren’t necessary), and not recognize that they typed something incorrectly when (-2)^2 gives them an answer of -4. (They typed -2^2.) Then imagine the frustration of the quadratic equation. This might not happen at terrific schools, but I work at a statistically average public high school. It’s common here (and in districts around us). Then consider there are roughly 50% of high schools lower than mine, some of them significantly so.

When I’m teaching many college bound students at that age are actually eager to learn - openly telling me so, openly turning off their calculators or participating in discussions and learning the “language” outside of class in order to do so - but in this day and age, so many teachers have come through the “modern” ranks (that’s all they know) I’m not sure they know how to actually use the material.

There are still the occasional students who will tell me “Just give me the formula, I don’t care about the concepts!” but most love when I’m there and tell me they feel they actually learned something.

I’m too lazy (and in love with traveling) to work full time often though. I do what I can with teaching, tutoring (free at school), college talks informally in person with students and/or parents, and perhaps now the invite to add that officially to my tutoring skills. I just need to know more - fill in gaps of what I don’t know - if I decide to do it (though I’m told I already know far more than most - perhaps so for our area - not really compared to some of you on cc).

The other possibility I could do “when I grow up” (considering my youngest just graduated from college) is paid online tutoring. That’s what my kids think I should do (works with travel), but I’m not sure I want to give up the personal contact at my school (and the occasional paid job there). For now I’m holding off on a decision, gathering information, while seeing what happens with our parents (both mothers in ill health + FIL turns 90 on Monday) and perhaps my own health. By fall I’ll need to have decided - August for us. School starts here in latter August and ends in May.

I can read and learn for another month or six weeks, then make a decision.

Seems like this should be learned long before high school.

Using a calculator does not seem particularly useful in high school math, when problems are typically designed to avoid messy calculations (e.g. need to find and use the square root of 64 rather than square root of 61, or trigonometric functions on well known fractions and multiples of π radians) so that one can do the calculations without a calculator. Maybe a little more so if applied problems with less convenient real world numbers are given.

Calculators are required starting in K or 1st grade here now. My own tippy top lad’s grade (and a few others) were taught fractions solely via calculator in elementary and middle school. Teachers there saw no problem with it arguing that “Calculators and computers will be used in real life so it’s pointless and time consuming to teach them without.”

I was able to fix that one since the then head of the math department was on my side of the war (stepped down when our side lost). It is taught now by hand for at least a day or two… but we end up reteaching it in high school anyway - sometimes pretty regularly.

Math was the #1 reason we opted to start homeschooling when oldest hit high school. The two of mine who homeschooled high school easily scored in the 30s and 700s in math on the ACT/SAT. My youngest who chose to return to ps for 9-12 did better than our school average (very slightly above national average), but sometimes I wonder what he could have done. Ditto that for many of the bright students at my school. Mine aren’t really “special” compared to their bright peers. The few who score well almost always (perhaps always) put significant time in learning math themselves, often from prep books. There was a time we even cut circles from Geometry… (no time, not used much IRL, etc)

When folks talk about so many students heading to college unprepared, I’m never surprised. On CC I hear about good high schools. I went to one in my day myself. But the school I work in is statistically average score-wise. I’m at the top of the bell curve.

When I went to high school decades ago, it was a public school with about a third of graduates going to four year colleges immediately after graduation (more went to the local community college). Most of the colleges were state universities (mostly non-flagship).

So I find it odd that students in good high schools and their parents are so concerned about preparedness for college, and college admissions. For example, it seems to be a given that students need to cram for all standardized tests, even though, back then, people just took the PSAT once or twice and the SAT once or twice, usually just with a familiarization of the test format from the booklet with the sign-up papers (and some did earn the equivalent of 1500+ today after rescaling and concordance equivalencies). Achievement (now SAT subject) tests were taken without any additional prep besides completing the associated high school course (800 was common among math level 2 takers who just did well in precalculus, and 700+ was not unusual among A students in other courses). AP tests were likewise taken after the AP course without additional prep (A students earning 5 scores were not unusual).

But perhaps there may be much more grade inflation and/or curriculum degradation in high schools these days, so that “A students” now include a wider range of actual achievement in the high school (including AP) courses, and that range is revealed by worse scores on SAT subject and AP tests, or the need to cram for them even after completing the associated course.

@Creekland

“Regurgitation is necessary to “speak the language” (as I tell my high school students), but it’s essentially memorization of words to make us appear smart (sciencese or mathese). Being able to use it by understanding the concepts is the true measure of learning”

This is very true, but is also why I am super frustrated when I see elite schools giving introductory STEM courses to future STEM majors that don’t really go beyond that type of learning. When a class is loaded with high achievers, we already know that they can do that fairly quickly. It is revealing when a multitude of instructors for a multi-section course or a majority of courses in a STEM department at an elite university essentially decide (maybe not on purpose. After all most PhDs are not trained in teaching) that they will be “cheap” and trick students into thinking they are being challenged by just testing the upper limits of their regurgitation skills. When it comes to those service courses for pre-healths in the life sciences, leave that type of learning to the pre-clinical courses in health professional schools. Ideally, the elite university should not only be taking advantage of the higher IQs to hit them with more content than a school with less high achievers, but should ultimately be aiming to show them how to really use the material/foundations to solve new problems or understand more nuanced contexts. Talent is being wasted otherwise to just keep us (I claim it because I was once there) intellectually (not academically, again, they can still achieve a grade distribution that will make students claim that their courses are hard. But again, they don’t realize that it isn’t a relevant rigor) comfortable. I avoided instructors like this like the plague. I found it insulting. They are either saying: “I don’t have time to inculcate thinking skills” or “I don’t actually think you folks are good enough or ready for that regardless of what your credentials say”.

And note, not every critical thinking oriented STEM course needs to yield low scores. For example, my schools’ evolutionary biology course was fairly “easy” grade wise because the syllabus had far more than just exams in it. There was a project and a primary literature discussion section that comprised a large chunk of the grade. The exams were focused on experimental/data analysis and put evolutionary phenomenon in contexts pulled directIy from the literature. They would give the abstract or introduction and key figures (usually integrating several areas of biology), and ask us to interpret them in terms of what we learned. Traditional evolutionary biology courses are more about defining terms or doing plug and chug math problems related to population biology in very almost super classical scenarios. Designing the course the way I described clearly focused on getting us to recognize what evolution/natural selection looks like and how you design experiments or what data one collects to unveil certain phenomenon. Reading the literature and doing p-sets (also, not that common in evolution courses, and again, when they exist, usually definition or plug-and-chug based) helped most do well on these, but even those who didn’t do particularly well had the other components to compensate.

I have transitioned to my thesis lab in my PhD program and fortunate to have kept my bio 2 materials, because my molecular and bacterial genetics is very rusty and I need to know it to know why I am prepping bacteria for expression in certain ways. I looked at 2 of the problem sets and was really impressed with them and how helpful they were by focusing more on experimental biology and genetics engineering. I actually showed it to the post-doc helping me with some experiments and he noted it was very cool and was surprised it was a freshman general biology course (most schools, especially publics cede the 2nd semester of biology to ecology, classical genetics, and physiology concepts and then it becomes a memorization festival after or before the classical genetics. Many elite privates have migrated from this model, but some still have it) as opposed to an upper division experimental microbiology course. Interestingly, I think back when taking the course, and realized how I was initially in fear/annoyed because the old AP biology curriculum which I took did not cover that type of material at all (and even now, the depth is much lower versus this course), and perhaps I was hoping I would just cruise.

But considering how much literature I must read (I am in structural biology, but of course when you must express proteins, you need to know genetic engineering and tons of other things. Field is interdisciplinary just as a sub-discipline of biochemistry) and the experiments I must conduct, I realized how much I took the style of the 2nd semester for granted. If you look at one of those threads, I actually was initially much more critical about Emory’s intro. biology sequence and said it was “easier” than Vanderbilt’s biology sequence, but I have kind of evolved as I looked into what current standards for bio education are. Let us just say…I was wrong and believe Emory has it right (I think there are some instructors that run certain courses who need to get serious, but overall, you can see that there is a defined teaching culture that has affected many courses positively and has gotten buy-in by not only junior faculty, but also some much older ones. Post-recession, undergraduate education in that dept. is doing super well. Courses have expanded into areas more on the frontier. Maybe almost 40-50% of intermediate/upper divisions have added the primary literature discussion sections I mentioned, and several more who don’t HEAVILY directly integrate it into lecture sessions/the syllabi. That is how I think a school full of high achievers should train/orient students in STEM discipline, at least in life sciences. Seems like not as many courses have the stereotypical structure for college bio. classes: Lecture, by-the-textbook, quizzes, and tests, and maybe 1 assignment or supplemental reading). Oddly, some believe that intro. biology courses should just be content heavy and that experimental focus/analysis and complexity should be saved for intermediates and upper divisions. To me, that logic fails because it allows the foundation courses to set an expectation that learning biology is indeed only about memorization, and thus ill-prepares students for future courses (or research) that do stress concepts and experimental biology. Students will not retain information from courses that focus too heavily on little details as opposed to big picture thinking and analysis anyway. Usually skills last even if certain content knowledge fades.

*The school definitely rules for neuroscience, biology, and chemistry undergraduate education. Physics, CS, and math…really gonna need it to work on that. Seems math is on its way to being in the shadows of the quantitative methods (basically statistics/statistical computing curriculum for undergrads) program which went live just in 2011 lol. No surprise. One has classes that focus on real scenarios and offer many opportunities for project based learning that may resonate better with students.

@warblersrule

Emory has been in the top 40 of USNWR (mostly somewhere in the 18-20ish range) for quite some time and is a private university.

Emory’s class of 2017 had an average GPA at graduation of 3.342 (lower than Wake Forest’s recent stats and the stats of the public universities you listed).
http://news.emory.edu/features/2017/05/commencement2017/

This is consistent with Emory’s much lower rate of grade inflation over the years compared to other privates.
http://www.gradeinflation.com/

The 2018 commencement page reported Emory's average GPA was 3.42, up from 2017.Emory's GPAs do seem lower than most other highly selective, private colleges. However, the same could be said for Wake Forest. GradeInflation.com reports that Wake Forest's average GPA was 3.36 in 2014, within 0.01 of Emory's 2014 commencement GPA. I'd expect Wake Forest's current average is also quite similar to Emory's current average. Why does it matter which one is lower? Is one of the colleges "on the way down"?

I recall our CC showing us a number of schools that had the same score band for matriculating students yet very different rates of acceptance. The ones that were less selective generally offered merit as well. (This was a few years ago, but I think that one of those pairings was Trinity (ct) and Wooster). By that measure, Trinity is “overrated”. With that said, I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend Trinity to anyone looking at LACs. As mentioned above, location and expectations matter.

As for the CC’s point, you can often get the same student body "quality " without the crazy ultra-selectivity that seems to be attractive to a lot of students. It seems to be a badge of honor to be accepted to a school with a sub- 20% acceptance rate, and while those schools end up with great student bodies, so do others – with far less angst!

One metric that might shed light on the OP’s question is the change in college endowment per student (EPS) over a recent time window (say, 5 years).

Yeshiva University had one of the largest drops in US News rankings in recent years (-48 positions from 2013-18). According to IPEDS data, from 2011-2016 its EPS also dropped (from $149,840 in 2011 to $85,186 in 2016, a drop of ~76%). For the same time periods, Alabama’s USNWR ranking dropped 33 positions and its EPS dropped by over 11%. Clarkson’s USNWR ranking dropped 9 positions; its EPS dropped by nearly 19%.

In contrast, for the same time periods, Northeastern’s USNWR rank improved by 16 positions and its EPS increased by nearly 23%. Boston University’s rank improved 14 positions and its EPS increased nearly 28%.

“Yeshiva University had one of the largest drops in US News rankings in recent years (-48 positions from 2013-18). According to IPEDS data, from 2011-2016 its EPS also dropped (from $149,840 in 2011 to $85,186 in 2016, a drop of ~76%)”

That is such a stupendous drop, especially given the robust market performance during that period that I had to google to read more.

They did lose slightly over $100 million as a result of the Madoff scam however their losses go much, much higher than that - way too much risk which resulted in losses leading them to tap into their principal - a huge no-no in the world of non-profit endowments - resulting in total losses of $1.3 billion at the time this interesting article was written in 2014. I wonder what has transpired since?

http://www.takepart.com/feature/2014/06/17/yeshiva-university-loses-endowment-hedge-funds/

@BiffBrown and @Data10 : They (Emory) seem to let it go up and down…if a graduating does super well, it does super well, it it doesn’t it doesn’t. I think since 2007 or so, it was anywhere between 3.36-3.39 and it would oscillate somewhere between those numbers, and then last year it was 3.34, and then this cycle 3.41/2, something. Meanwhile, If you look at gradeinflation.com, it almost looks like most elite privates of similar caliber and higher (let us say ranked 10 and higher reached or almost jumped to some new upper plateau for which they never go below each year). I have to wonder if it will continue to yo yo in a narrow range (maybe a new higher one) because the quantitative methods major is now growing popular among students who before would only major in a single humanities or social sciences discipline. Since this group usually has higher grades, it may be possible that later Emory cohorts with more QTM majors may see some downward shift in the middle at least. I doubt those math and computing based courses have the same grading distribution as many standard humanities and social sciences. Emory’s curriculum across departments is in a lot of flux.

I suspect that Emory’s can vary because a) gender distribution changes (I think this idea is less relevant as maybe females were always 60 to 40 males. However, I would expect cohorts with more females to do at least slightly better) and b) changes in major distribution/departmental grading standards. One thing I noticed is that last year was class of 2017 and economics, a very highly subscribed major, rolled out a suggested grade distribution that the business school had in 2013 I think. It affected multiple core courses (which is a HUGE chunk of the curriculum-apparently at some point economics dept. experienced a lot of inflation for which this was meant to curb). When I was there, students did sort of flippantly add an economics major in addition to whatever else they were doing. For a while, I was hearing about students in 2015 or so (maybe sophomores) saying how some courses, namely the intro. courses had gotten harder in terms of complexity and grading (one pre-health said that they were taking such courses in anticipation of a possible econ. major, but would likely not because those courses were not as easy as expected based upon what he had heard. He likely knew the writing was on the wall for intermediate and upper division courses, many of which were known to be challenging cognitively even before the curve).

I will not entertain discussions about USNWR (which can care less about graduating GPA…Emory’s SAT was essentially flat for several years until the 2 most recent classes and the one coming in meaning that class of 2016 having a 3.34, lower than previous years and class of 2017 having 3.42, higher than previous years, is not associated for metrics taken into account both directly and indirectly by USNWR. The scores and incoming GPA brackets of those classes were both the same) because that measures institutional wealth, quality of life, and popularity almost. I am not but so sure that actual quality is popular so much as a perception of it. Even when students get to a school, often quality is: “lecturer that sounds great and designs class such that getting high grade is not too challenging” (enthusiastic lecturing is nice, but are they teaching one how to think and is the instructor demanding those thinking skills). Basically, “it is not okay to challenge me AND make me seriously work for a high grade” and then also: “I only want a fair challenge” and I have defined what many students deem fair.

@tk21769 : A trusted CC friend of mind whose company of employment recruits in the Boston area has given some information about NE. I don’t have a problem with their educational model, but this person said that an administrator reported that they failed to yield as well as previous years because they aimed maybe way to high for the statistical threshold of admitted students. Both of these things are things USNWR cares about. The person also mentioned how they were considering changing the organization of certain majors in the business school to go beyond just a co-op program and offer more flexible training. USNWR I’m sure does not care about this unless it is something that can be sold and marketed to prospective students in a way that raises scores and yield. I don’t know why the OP wants to relate this (actual education) to rank…it kind of makes little sense.

@tutumom2001 A school that meets full needs is doing that with the interest on their billions of dollars endowment along with other sources of income including tuition and donations earmarked for tuition aid as opposed to endowment. They aren’t necessarily reaching into savings to get poorer kids on campus. Now, there may come a time they have to stop the practice but a smart school will do that long before depleting their endowment.

Schools with big endowments tend to be really good with their alumni base. I know my eldest just graduated last month from a school she could never have gotten to without the full need policy. She received an endowed scholarship that has its own endowment set up by a family and funds kids off the interest. She and her friends have a strong sense of giving back to the school and already donate in small amounts now.

Either way, it is possible that constant increases happen at schools with flat or slightly increased selectivity per cohort when not much is going on with undergraduate curricula (at least not those that are highly subscribed to or likely to be highly subscribed to). Emory has been doing certain changes to more highly subscribed (economics, with the grading curve, political science with more stringent requirements, including addition of explicit requirements that some students may have dodged on the previous requirements. Chemistry has made very substantial changes that will likely challenge students more than before. QTM has solidified its role in ECAS and humanities/social sciences majors are adding QTM majors as well as some science majors, which is already relatively harsh) majors that seem as if they generally make them more rigorous, so I wouldn’t bank on this yo-yoing to end. BTW @Data10 : before the 3.34 was a 3.38: http://news.emory.edu/stories/2016/05/er_commencement_class_of_2016_infographic/index.html .

Other years:
Co2015: 3.37 http://college.emory.edu/main/php/news-modal.php?sid=34715ae9aa8cca9112ba8437fca0e684
Co2014: 3.37 http://news.emory.edu/stories/2014/05/er_commencement_by_the_numbers/campus.html
Co2013: 3.39 http://news.emory.edu/stories/2013/05/er_commencement_by_the_numbers/campus.html
Co2012: 3.38 http://www.gradeinflation.com/Emory.html

I can’t see such data ever being useful for figuring out the “trajectory” of the school. Again, they may reflect internal changes to academic programs than it does quality of students. It does seem that many schools are less into this though. They pretty much keep things the same and make softer changes (with the trend usually going towards increased flexibility and dare I say, ease. Emory seems to be going in another direction which some planning documents have suggested changes are for the sake of creating more coherence and depth in undergraduate pathways and are also geared towards getting students to engage research even if it is just through serious course based research opportunities. And departments have been told to more so align their curriculum and requirements with this in mind). Emory has not decreased or flatlined in rankings because of academic quality and caliber so much as it has for bad PR days, and flat-lined admissions stats for several years whereas peers experienced canonical increases during the same days. Marketing and PR is more likely to have an effect in either direction if a school is wealthy. Schools with aggressive marketing don’t have to do more than build nice amenities and facilities to attract “better” students (today it looks more like a beauty pageant). There is no need to consider serious changes (or really even care for) to undergraduate programs to play the rankings games.

@bernie12

What year are you referring to? For the freshman class of 2017 Northeastern was 300 students overenrolled. The yield was higher than expected and created on campus housing problems. For the freshman class of 2018 I believe that the target class size was reduced to ease housing overcrowding. A conservative approach was taken in admission offers as they could not risk another overenrolled class. Better to go to the waitlist than having to lease a hotel to house student overflow.

Consider these articles on gaming the rankings:

http://www.wbur.org/news/2014/09/09/northeastern-college-ranking-system
https://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/2014/08/26/how-northeastern-gamed-the-college-rankings/

I know we like to view most of the top 20-25 schools as these “purists” (and single out a couple) who all got popular by getting academically better, but let us keep it real and note that a lot of the “newer” ones got there through these tactics, and some continue to use it today (hint: Most with strangely high score ranges versus rank and level of academics versus other schools at very top with similar scores). Emory has never been in this category. Emory, even when it was doing its misreporting, was not reporting scores so high that it would really have an edge score wise over any school ranked near or above it which is why when it reported itself or got caught, there was some bad PR that probably damaged its reputation score components, but it likely would not have affected the rankings just based on selectivity metrics. Emory has been a highly ranked school with a lower score range than its peers and many privates below it for quite a while. One can say that it is over-rated because of grade inflation, but all elite privates and publics (and not so elites) have it to some degree and in my book, it doesn’t tell much about curriculum quality and tells more about the general culture in highered. I don’t think it should be targeted to heavily for “over-rated” undergrad. education, because it and a lot of the high ranked D-3 schools seem to put more effort into reforms and changes than many other places that have actually experienced increases in the rankings.

For example, WUSTL has fallen because its yield and admit rate are not “better” (higher and lower respectively) than the peers it was ahead of before, yet I would have to say that academically (undergrad) they are probably better and more rigorous than many/most of them and again, put in a lot more effort to stay “fresh” with better trends in highered. In addition, to the super wealthy super elite schools in the top 10 or so, schools like it Chicago, Emory (people on CC like to come for this one because its research apparatus doesn’t have Nobel Laureates. What this has to do with undergraduate education, I don’t know. The place only became truly relevant as a research university in the mid 90s, and was a teaching institution before. For undergraduates, it ought to be very good, but people somehow conflate the two which can be a fallacy), JHU, CMU, and other D-3s can afford to because they don’t have the distraction of D-1 sports (nor do they have to upkeep such programs which may or may not be profit generating likely depending upon their performance). They can focus on undergraduate education quite a bit more and even make it more rigorous/intellectually stimulating if they want because supposedly they chose not to have D-1 (minus hopkins Lacrosse I guess) which could very well create a social and academic culture resistant to changes in the academic realm (it is the trade-off becoming more popular easily-by just being seen because of sports and having the social atmosphere that comes with big money college sports versus having to actually hope that students come for the academics and maybe quality of life and then having to hype up marketing for that). I’m not asking for schools to be academically perfect so will not call schools “over-rated” if I know they clearly put in effort to stay fresh in educating undergrads.

For example, Northeastern beyond their classical admissions tricks/marketing tactics that have been done before elsewhere, has seriously tried for an educational model that they thought would really benefit students and those efforts are relatively recent in terms of large scale implementation. I applaud their serious effort and experimentation. I think we need to be careful about who we label over-rated and how we reach that conclusion of who to include and who not to. I usually choose to play it safe and say that many/most selective and highly selective schools are over-rated and could all be doing better especially considering how much they cost. I figure out who is over-rated based upon department or discipline. Like I don’t think pre-healths or life sciences majors should flock to places with dinosaur aged teaching in the life sciences just because the school has a medical school and hospital. The latter two typically have no influence on what is taught to undergrads and there are so many places with strong education for undergrads as well as a hospital and medical school. If you are a physics or CS prodigy, maybe don’t choose a selective school not great at that simply because the school is “prestigious and fun” when there are other schools perhaps less prestigious that are really good at it and have a pipeline to companies of interest.

@TomSrOfBoston : 2018. It is probably a mixture of that and whatever the person (an Emory alum. I think they kind of just talk about trends at both schools, especially the business schools) was told by the administrator. I believe Emory tried to limit its enrollment this year for the same reason (because the past few years they over-stepped either intentionally or not) and decided not to pull from the wait-list. But when schools do these things with enrollments, there are likely multiple reasons. I, for example, suspect Emory had increased enrollment sizes over like a 4 year period to increase revenue. I am a cynic and a realist. Not even my alma mater will get a perfect review from me, and sometimes it is just obvious what it is up to. I like to tell what it does right, but when it plays the games and uses tactics of elsewhere, so be it. I am not on here to yield every student interested in it.

To put a slightly finer point on it, standard practice is to pay out a fixed percentage (usually 4 or 5%) of endowment assets, calculated on a 3-year (or 5-year) rolling average of asset values. That way market volatility won’t produce quite as sharp upward and downward spikes in the funds available for operational expenses, including FA, endowed faculty chairs, etc. In years when endowment earnings exceed the payout, the excess earnings are plowed right back into the endowment, which continues to grow. In down markets, the payout might exceed endowment earnings, or earnings might even be negative, but the school is still receiving operational funds from endowment payout. In the long run, barring major investment blunders the endowment will continue to grow—and the vast majority do. And of course, the endowment also grows through new gifts from alumni and other benefactors, especially when the school conducts a multi-year capital campaign aimed at adding to the endowment. Many of these gifts are multi-year pledges or are testamentary in nature, meaning they take effect only upon the death of the donor. A school could have additional billions in the pipeline this way, but those funds won’t even show up as endowment assets until the transfer is actually made. The result is that, with some spectacular exceptions, almost all endowments grow over time, despite some down years.

Turtletime is also right that schools also have other sources of funds to support FA in additional to the endowment. Most private schools have robust annual giving programs in which donors (mainly alumni) contribute annually to operational expenses, and both need-based aid and merit scholarships give schools an attractive sales pitch to solicit this type of gift. Most public universities aren’t as good at this, but they’re learning as state appropriations continue to shrink as a fraction of their budgets. Public universities still do get some state appropriations, and in most cases these funds can be used for FA. And for some schools, the actual cost of instruction per student is less than the full sticker-price tuition, so full-pays effectively cross-subsidize students on FA.

And at some schools, the sticker price is just a fictional number, because everyone gets either need-based FA or merit scholarships. It’s a psychological trick: most people feel pretty good if they’re offered a $40K item for $25K (after a $15K discount, aka “merit scholarship”). But if they’re offered the same thing at a fixed price of $25K, they’ll think it must be not as good at the one over there that has a sticker price of $40K.

“And at some schools, the sticker price is just a fictional number, because everyone gets either need-based FA or merit scholarships”

Can you give an example of a school where everyone is getting a discount?

Wake Forest is notoriously known as Work Forest. It suffers from grade DEFLATION, not inflation. Very challenging to get As in the Forest. Their kids are very smart, and they are given a lot of work. Interesting vibe because even the hardcore partiers log serious study time.