<p>FWIW, I recently attended a case studies session in conjuction with a college fair. In my group the admissions directors were from Mt. Holyoke and Villanova. There was a case very similary to your S’s–very high SATs, but middling grades. The kid was denied by both schools. In his case, the deciding factor was the personal essay and the recommendations. I think there are a lot of schools who will take a chance on the “brilliant underachiever,” but they need some assurance that their school has got what’s going to light the fire.</p>
<p>I think our sons might be twins. Same ACT score and my S’s practice SAT score was similiar. Once he got the ACT score, I decided to encourage him to apply to Princeton and now he is considering Yale as well. His grades took a serious dive during his Sophmore year and that is going to keep him on the low end of the 10% or possible even push him out of it to top 11 or 12%. We just don’t know yet for sure as his high school has a large population of students that move in and out. </p>
<p>I’ve encourage him to think of schools like Yale and Princeton as lottery tickets. He’s got many things going for him on the application but only 7% of kids get selected, so it’s a, well, lottery. If he writes strong essays and his recomendations are as great, maybe that will be enough or it might not be enough. I’ve been told that him being a military kid is both a positive and completely neutral. It just goes on and on, doesn’t it?</p>
<p>So, we’re sticking with the plan all along, which is similar to yours. He’s got a safety picked out that he loves and we can afford. There are four to six schools he’s going to apply to where he will have a competitive shot at enough merit money to make them fit in our budget, including two that are generous with merit aid for NMF, which we hope he’ll also be. And then he’ll put in those two lottery tickets. We will not visit Princeton or Yale unless he gets in. In my opinion, those are two campuses it’s just easy to fall head over heels for and the information on-line is already so enticing. </p>
<p>Personally, I find trying to figure out all the variables stressful, so I hope that our approach is sound and I believe that it is. Time will tell.</p>
<p>^^^^ siserune,
I think you’re missing the point. At the most selective schools, you’re just not in the running if you don’t have top HS grades. Look at the figures: at schools like HYPS, 95% to 98% of the entering class are in the top 10% of their HS class, and a phenomenal number are vals or sals. Princeton, for example, reports that 96.8% of the students enrolled in their class of 2012 were ranked in the top decile of their HS class.</p>
<p>[Princeton</a> University | Admission Statistics](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/admission/applyingforadmission/admission_statistics/]Princeton”>http://www.princeton.edu/admission/applyingforadmission/admission_statistics/)</p>
<p>Among those who do have top grades, then you’re right, SAT scores are a pretty telling indicator of which of those candidates will be accepted. But if you don’t have top grades, you’re not even in the running. The literature you cite doesn’t contradict this. I assume the point of the OP’s question was to ask, which top colleges will overlook my less-than-stratospheric GPA and focus more on my SAT scores. And the answer, I think, is pretty much none, unless you’ve got a powerfully impressive “hook.”</p>
<p>Ready to Roll… I can understand your pain. I have a Freshman S who I fear is going to end up the same way. CTY kid also, who for some reason can’t seem to get those coveted A’s. He is at an incredibly rigorous prep school, so I know how hard those A’s are, but is so hard to understand because I know the potential is there… and so do all his teacher’s, they are frustrated as well. My S also will be very disappointed come college acceptance time if he ends up having to go to state school, when all of the kids he hangs out with will probably be going to a top 10 school. I reiterate to him often the importance colleges put on grades but so far I have seen no results. I’ve heard this “condition” is common in bright kids but it is so hard to see the honor roll results from his school and his name is not on there, I’m told him that those kids aren’t any smarter than him, they only work harder.I’m trying to hold onto hope that he will buckle down next year… he is a boy, but I’m not holding my breath.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>He might surprise you. Actions have consequences, that’s true enough, but he may find a state school he likes very much. Or he may qualify for merit money based on becoming a National Merit Finalist. Or he may buckle down and his grades go way up. </p>
<p>My S had a stellar freshman year and then the wheels came off the next year. His therapist really helped us to not just accept the reality but embrace it. There are so many wonderful colleges in this country outside of not only the top 10 but the top 100 or top 500. Yes, you’ll all have to work harder to find a match but that doesn’t mean it has to be a disappointment. </p>
<p>Best of luck to you.</p>
<p>If he is open to coming to California, I suggest looking at University of Southern California and asking about possible placement in their honors program. My D’s guidance counselor told me that the school’s admissions office has a particular fondess for very high SAT/ACT kids. While my D didn’t apply, her best friend is at USC and speaks very highly about the mentoring she has gotten.</p>
<p>OP:</p>
<p>search for colleges that give out large merit awards for NMSF’s…they are after high test scores. And, ditto above, USC is one of them.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think there is a lot of confusion about this question due to failure to quantify what “the point” is. Having near-zero admission below some level of grades or class rank is something that is also true of tests. The sensitivity to tests is already comparable to that for grades when considering SAT alone, and would increase if you consider the full battery of SAT-II, AP, IB, and the national exam competitions in math, physics, Latin, etc.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And the same is true for test scores. The cutoffs are at similar percentiles. Going up from there, tests have more potential for distinguishing candidates and the admissions figures reflect this. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The top decile of SAT is around 1940-50. Princeton doesn’t admit too many of those, either. Scores below 1900 get in at 2.3 percent. In the 1900-2090 range they take 6.2 percent. A rough extrapolation from their table suggests around 3-4 percent admission below the highest decile of SAT. This is close to, but slightly more permissive, than what the figure for class rank suggests.</p>
<p>That’s at the bottom of the range. </p>
<p>At the top the story is different. For scorers near the top of the SAT and ACT scale, the rate of admission reaches 40-50 percent. Princeton takes scorers of 2300+ at a rate of 28 percent. Brown’s web site shows 50 percent acceptance with perfect ACT versus 30 percent for val/sal. The historical equivalent at HYP for perfect SAT (new scale, I think) was around 40 percent. At Princeton, perfect GPAs get in at only 16.4 percent. </p>
<p>The test scale simply goes higher. There are tens of thousands of valedictorians each year and not nearly as many perfect or near-perfect SAT and ACT or students with a two-digit number of perfect APs.</p>
<p>I’m glad to see this thread getting some traffic again.</p>
<p>bluebayou, thanks for the NMSF merit award suggestion. I hadn’t considered that because S is likely to be Commended rather than SF (PSAT 217 in NJ), so won’t be eligible. But it does make sense that they are the ones chasing high test scores.</p>
<p>Other posters have indicated the at “top” schools, high test scores doesn’t make up for a less-than-stellar GPA. How about if we expanded the definition of top to not be tippy-top, but still with quite well-regarded academic programs?</p>
<p>I maintain the hope that if S ends up at a suitably-challenging, appropriately fitting school, his interest level and motivation will kick in more consistently, and hence he will live up to his potential.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Definitely true for unhooked candidates at the top 10 level. But, several colleges slightly down the food chain are looking to move up. Already mentioned 'SC. WashU, of course. Vandy went no-loan this year – apps skyrocketed as well as test scores of the acceptees. Emory with its Scholars program is definitely chasing higher scores; while a not-so-high gpa will exclude one from merit money, high scores just might get you in. </p>
<p>Those are examples just off the top…</p>
<p>Sacchi, you’re asking a couple of different questions. “quite well-regarded academic programs” can be found in about 500-600 colleges and U’s. Of those, your son’s stats are problematic at about 30 of them. Leaving lots and lots to choose from.</p>
<p>The next question is “appropriately fitting school” which is most likely a different animal.</p>
<p>My own kids had toxic reactions to any “safety type” school where the known slackers and party animals from their HS and our town were going. Our solution was to pick “out of area” safety schools. Then you can focus on a couple of the strong departments, outstanding professors, grad students doing interesting dissertations, etc. without having to go too deeply into the rest of the student body. It’s important to find a place where your son is going to have “his people” and other stimulating experiences. But don’t let his perception of “where the dumb kids go” prevent you from exploring some great choices.</p>
<p>This is particularly true for State U’s in other places. The tippy top of their students make for a great and challenging group of peers and your son won’t have to trip over the kids he knew (and didn’t respect) in HS.</p>
<p>I grew up in Boston when Northeastern and Suffolk had virtually open enrollment. I get such a chuckle now when I watch kids from my town CHOOSE Northeastern and Suffolk. Usually for some very good reasons. They usually end up really happy and challenged.</p>
<p>blossom, I’m not too concerned with finding more safety schools. TCNJ would be acceptable and would be way cheaper in-state than any other safety I can think of. It has rolling admissions and the plan is to apply early, so we’ll know early on whether or not any other safeties are needed. And merit money at TCNJ is highly likely. (Until recently they had published a table with SAT scores and class rank indicating merit aid eligibility.) If he doesn’t get into a clearly better school than TCNJ, I figure it is better to save our money for law school (or other graduate school if he changes his mind, or for his little sister if no graduate school at all).</p>
<p>What I’m really looking for is high-match/low-reach schools. If he could get into one of those that accomplish the fit/academic quality goals, it would be worth spending the $$$. I appreciate the school suggestions so far, and would appreciate getting more.</p>
<p>I want to echo the advice to look at USC. My 2350 SAT-scoring son has had a blissful freshman year there, and finds the other kids plenty smart and lots of fun. He’s in the honors program, which I think is fabulous. He got to take advantage of the National Merit discount, but you never know - your son’s scores might land him an interview for one of the big scholarships. </p>
<p>The only other bit of advice I can offer is to not over-think this. I was convinced by reading Michele Hernandez’s book last year that Dartmouth loved high SAT scores more than any other elite school did. S took my advice and applied ED there, and was rejected. We’ll never know why, but I was obviously so wrong! There’s just no tellin’.</p>
<p>^Dartmouth may love high SAT scores, but not enough to reach into the second decile for the B+ students. (At least not at our school.)</p>
<p>In recent years, Dartmouth admits more on test scores, GPA, and rank than the other Ivies, but that only means that you have to be tops in all three.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Dartmouth shows no visible preference for top GPA decile over top SAT decile, according to its online data.</p>
<p>10 percent of ranked Dartmouth students are below the 90th percentile in high school.</p>
<p>If Dartmouth preferred grades to test scores, it should have (substantially) more than 10 percent of its students with SAT below 1930, which is the 90th percentile.</p>
<p>However, the highest SAT possible for a student who on each section of the exam scores below Dartmouth’s 25th percentile, is 650 CR + 660 M + 660 W = 1970. This indicates that 1930 is a quite a low total in Dartmouth’s population, and it’s hard to see how the fraction of students below that score could get much past 10 percent, if it reaches that high at all.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Is this really true?! Although I’ve noticed that CMU’s average gpa is around 3.5-3.6 but they seem to favor higher SAT scores.</p>
<p>^ just based on the scattergram I saw. Maybe it differs by high school - but my school isn’t especially competitive or anything.</p>
<p>Don’t forget that Michelle’s book is now 10 years old AND, here experience in Hanover is even further back than that. Moreover, there is little statistical difference between the make-up of Dartmouth and Brown. IMO, the Ivies are just so competitive, they can’t help but accept high gpa plus high test scores. Just too many unhooked kids with those stats and good-great ECs to pass on. (Of course, the hooked kids can come in lower. Successful Ivy recruited athletes from our HS typically had at least one test at 700+. but were not top 10%.)</p>
<p><a href=“Of%20course,%20the%20hooked%20kids%20can%20come%20in%20lower.%20Successful%20Ivy%20recruited%20athletes%20from%20our%20HS%20typically%20had%20at%20least%20one%20test%20at%20700+.%20but%20were%20not%20top%2010%.”>quote</a>
[/quote]
I think hmom has said that Dartmouth has the greatest % of hooked students - maybe this has something to do with it.</p>