While Justice Sleeps - October CC Book Club Discussion

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On a side note regarding the technology: the sister of someone I know was diagnosed with cancer. MDA did genetic testing: if I remember correctly, the testing revealed something re specific Haplogroups and Japanese ancestry. MDA pinpointed almost exactly the location of ancestors, etc. It was a step further along the line in understanding the cancer.

So Abrams’ use of Haplogroups had that touch of familiarity - an “I actually understand where she’s going with this” feel to it that helped.

I understand its use to help medically. Abrams twisted it to use as a weapon. I actually wondered if that could be done.

I think Stokes wanted the merger shut down for two reasons. He wanted the U.S. part in using the technology for evil to remain a secret, particularly his part in approving it. If the merger happens then exposure is likelier to happen. And, even if it doesn’t, keeping the technology secret means the U.S. will be further ahead with the weapon than others. If I remember correctly, someone in the book (near the end) mentions that others -enemies of the state, let’s say - are also working toward that end and it’s only a matter of time.

The dilemma comes, I think, with the fact that it can also be used for good - saving lives, mitigating the effects of disease. Hence, the good that will come from the merger between the scientists in India and the U.S. pharmaceutical company. So while a weapon in one sense, totally not in another.

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Little confused, and thank you @ignatius for that post. But didn’t Abrams know about the human experiments, via the scientist whistle blower, he knew it would be used as weaponry in the wrong hands, Didn’t those human torture like experiments prove it was fatal to Muslims ?
Weren’t Abrams comments about saving humanity resting on Avery’s success based on scientist human studies ?

@veryhappy oh my impressed with all the details from book you finished ( even twice ) weeks ago! Abrams did expect the reader to suspend disbelief many times, and I did that, just went with the amazing coincidences, but can understand all your concerns with the book,

Were you pleased with the ending? If I remember it correctly, Avery argued she was under undue influence when the gave her White House speech ( which I don’t remember what that was - was it to give up power of attorney to family ? ) and that simultaneously the FBI, rescued her mother,

Then she argued in front of the Supreme Court, that she didn’t act of free will, she was under duress to save her mother, and wasn’t acting in the best interests of Justice Wynn ? So the Supreme Court decided she would retain power of attorney ? Hence he would be kept alive for some months with hopes of cure ?

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Totally missed the cues that the two justices were Black. Guess I’m not as attuned as I thought I was. More work to do…

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As far as I can tell different Haplogroups provide different information. Ex.:

In the last decade, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups have been associated with the occurrence of breast cancer.

Here’s another example:

New Native American Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups | DNAeXplained – Genetic Genealogy

Whatever Stokes and Vance funded focused elsewhere.

I only have the vaguest understanding of this and it comes from the genetic testing on my friend’s sister. In other words, I don’t have a medical degree or one in genetics. I was just happy to know what a Haplogroup is - however, vaguely.

And - yeah - I’m not certain who, if anyone, makes public what’s happened. Even the pharmaceutical company hadn’t been privy to the trials.

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It does it for every college – pays no attention to context. CC is CC, after all. I type Judge Howard Wynn…and you can learn all about Howard University by clicking on his middle name.

On p. 34, the initial description of the Chief Justice notes that she was five-four and often wore three-inch heels. Also: “With a sharp face that boasted a pointed chin and almost beaked nose, the Chief was a study in angles and planes. Observers of the Court called her striking.”

So nothing particularly revealing there (and ebony tendrils and brown eyes could also apply to my white, black-haired, brown-eyed daughter, so those features of the Chief Justice didn’t nudge me out of my white bubble).

But the question is, is the Chief Justice’s race important to the story? Is Judge Wynn’s? Is Avery’s? On the one hand, per her interview, Stacey Abrams wants to say no – that she has created a world in which race does not dominate every conversation or immediately affect how characters view each other (or how the reader views the characters). And yet, on the other hand, Abrams also says in the interview:

Race matters and it is disingenuous to write stories, especially contemporary fiction, without acknowledging that the race of the character is going to change the interactions they have.

My point is that it doesn’t wholly define who they are to the exclusion of their other aspects, and so yes, her race matters, her gender matters, and those were both very intentional of me.

It’s a delicate balancing act to create a world where race takes a back seat, but at the same time plays a part in the interactions characters have with each other. It’s hard, perhaps impossible, to simultaneously ignore and acknowledge race.

Since I didn’t read the races accurately, I also didn’t look for any racial tension between characters. Was it there? Was evil President Stokes a racist as well as a corrupt politician and a murderer? Was there any indication that Avery was less respected because she was bi-racial, or that the Chief Justice had her authority questioned because she was black? I don’t think so. And yet, if race doesn’t ever play into any of the ways these characters interact, then the novel tilts from fiction to fantasy. Then again, Stacey Abrams already had a whole lot on her plate with just the political/thriller machinations of this story; adding the nuances of race and gender would have been a challenge even for the most seasoned author, much less for a relative newbie, who is, as the NYT stated, out more to entertain than enlighten.

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I appreciate this summary because, to be honest, I had forgotten just about everything about the book two months after reading it. Seeing all these points helped bring it back. I did enjoy the book but took it as somewhat fantastical.

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Oh man, I totally forgot about the ending – Yes, I’m resigning for the Justice; No, I didn’t resign for the Justice 'cause it wasn’t of my own free will. I really don’t think that anyone could get away with that IRL. I mean, of course all of this would never have happened IRL . . .

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No, it wasn’t about the guardianship. That said, I do need help from all of you to clarify what it was! At first, I thought it was Ani’s confession about his role in the genocide experiment, based on this passage (p. 303):

She ignored the bottle and instead slit open the envelope, removing a single sheet of paper. Her attention immediately focused on the signature scrawled at the bottom.

“This is what he had me sign in his office. What he had me witness,” she explained as she skimmed the contents. As she suspected, Justice Wynn had anticipated this final act. “This is what Ani sent him. He couldn’t quit without atoning first.”

She handed the letter to Jared. “This is how we’re going to save my mother and your father. And bring down the president.”

But then I started to second guess myself. How would Avery’s signature validate a confession from someone she didn’t know? And then I got more confused at the end of the novel with this exchange between the Chief and Avery:

“Good news, by the way. We granted your motion to void the letter of resignation.”

“Really?”

“Yes.” She checked the corridor. “There’s another one, isn’t there?”

“A real one, yes.” Avery stopped. “How did you know?”

“I’ve read Howard’s opinions, too. I assume he has a real, authentic one hidden somewhere?”

“I have it, and I’ll use it when the time is right.”

Did we know there was a real resignation letter? If so, how did I miss that? And then I started wondering if that letter was actually what Avery witnessed – but then that wouldn’t make sense because apparently whatever she witnessed had been sent by Ani. Head spinning. :crazy_face:

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My understanding was that in the package they found, was the real resignation letter to be used once the court went into recess. And that letter or codicil 27 (living will type document) was what he got her to sign. Also, Justice Wynn makes his intentions clear about Avery being the crucial element to carry out his super-convoluted plan.
Doesn’t he say somewhere that only Avery could act as his Guardian, that she couldn’t cede control to anyone else even to Jared, that control over his life would then go automatically go to Celeste if she decided not to accept?

About race or lack of it, the only one place where I actually thought about it was when Abrams talked about Avery’s biracial heritage. I didn’t realize that Justices Wynn and Roseborough were black till now.
The Indian names indicated the race automatically so not much thought given to it. Race didn’t matter and it was nice to read a book that got me thinking about other things than race.

I too seem to be reading books without complete retention or comprehension lately. There was one chapter that began with ‘Avery…’ but because of the fancy font in my e-book it read as ‘A very’.
That was a head scratcher for a minute. And the worst one, I didn’t even realize till now the double meaning of the book’s title While Justice Sleeps. Ha!

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@veryhappy the ending is much more than “I resign, now I don’t, “
Avery strategically plotted to have her mother rescued as she was rescinding her guardianship, had they rescued before this moment at the White House, her final argument would have been mute ( her mother would have been saved )

She then used the legal system, to present the facts that she subjugated her fiduciary duties, she didn’t act on behalf of Wynn, it was clearly, to save her mother.

And, wasn’t it in front of the publicity she brought the facts of the trials to everyone, and implicated president stokes. The whole thing imploded at that hearing.

So Justice prevailed,

It was really quite a brilliant ending.

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Head spinning, too @Mary13

So do I have this much right?
Avery became guardian
The resignation letter, as @Caraid pointed out meant Celeste “pull the plug now” would have become guardian.

Avery signed a document which we have some confusion about,

If it was the witnessing of the Rani’s confession , would that then allow her to present the information in front of the Supreme Court, because she had knowledge via being the witness ( fake though it was) and she could present that to the Supreme Court hearing,

( I do realize that this was illegal, but Wynn picked her because she bent the rules for the greater good of mankind in this case ) had she admitted she didn’t really witness that confession she might be disbarred.
( calling out to @himom an attorney and she recommended this book, we need you)

The codicil was the hidden resignation letter of Wynn resigning ? Confused

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Yes, that’s correct. And re Celeste, how did Judge Wynn ever find the time to court a second wife, and why would a guy with his smarts ever choose someone like her, especially after experiencing a true love match with his first wife? I can’t even picture him standing up and saying vows with Celeste, unless done ironically. :slight_smile:

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I expect that the TV adaptation will edit the novel for clarity by reducing the number of characters and simplifying the convoluted plot. I do hope they stay relatively true to the original though. (The mini-series for The One, an earlier CC choice, strayed so far from the source material as to be practically unrecognizable.)

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Hope they stick to original so I can better understand it all, or I guess I can reread it , I did buy it.
As soon as I saw your link, I too thought of THE ONE, unrecognizable

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From Stacy Abrams’ interview:

Note Avery’s race and gender - and I’d add age - matter here and were therefore intentional. Wynn and Roseborough matter less in the novel - though on screen is a different matter - and therefore Abrams’ leaves it to the reader. Nowhere does she indicate either are white.

It makes me think of Scalzi’s novel Lock In. He evidently made a bet that he could write a book without drawing attention to the gender (or race) of the main character Chris. The audio version has a male narrator or a female narrator. You get what you get. I had no idea of this bet before I read the book so subconsciously assigned gender (male).

From In Which Tor.com Reveals a Thing I Did With Lock In + Lock In Spoiler Thread | Whatever. Skip immediately to first comment - Scalzi’s why and wherefore:

As a writer, I was curious to see — in a way that would not distract from the narrative of the murder mystery at the heart of a novel, or would make an overt political statement — what people’s defaults would be in relating to Chris as a protagonist. Do they see Chris as male? Female? Neither or somewhere inbetween? And in each case for what reasons? Would the fact I am a male author have an effect? What other factors would come into play? And so on.

I would note I didn’t tell anyone I was doing this — not even my editor Patrick. When he read it, he filled Chris in with his own defaults; so did Krissy, my wife, who is my usual first reader. In their cases they came to different conclusions.

We also decided not to call attention to it in the publicity run-up for the release, which was slightly tricky with regard to the audiobook version, as it had two versions, one read by Wil Wheaton and the other by Amber Benson (both of whom did a fine job). We didn’t hide it, or run from it — I was asked about it a couple of times during the book tour — but by and large we let people come to it without calling attention to Chris’ gender (or lack of stated one thereof). So it was very interesting to see how people reacted to it if they noticed at all, which they often did not.

What I’ve found anecdotally is that it seems that it’s about 70/30 in terms of how people see Chris, with 70% defaulting male. I would say nearly all men defaulted male, while there was more parity amoung women in terms of how they defaulted out. No one as far as I could tell assumed Chris was without gender, which in itself probably says something. Nearly all the reviews of the book I’ve seen assumed Chris was male, I would note.

As for which gender Chris really “is”: I don’t know. I knew going in that I wasn’t going to gender the character, so as far as went, I worked not to let myself default one way or the other. Whether I was successful in this regard is up to readers to decide. This also means there’s no “right” answer. If Chris is male to you, that works for me. It also works for me if you see Chris as female. It also works if you see Chris as something else, or somewhere inbetween.

Finally, I would note that while there is certainly a bit of me making a sociopolitical point here about how people default with gender in the absence of over information, the point is intentionally rather mild, indeed to such an extent that it can (and ancedotally is) often missed or ignored entirely. It’s there for people who notice it and want to think about it, and not for those who don’t. Other people with more focused thoughts and (using the term non-perjoratively) agendas with regard to gender can and do have more to say about the matter in fiction, and do. I suspect some people would say I didn’t press the point far enough, and that there are other who would say that pressing it at all was too far.

For me, this was something I could do in the specific world I constructed, and did, and was curious to see how people would respond (or even if they would respond). It’s been interesting so far.

Anyway, Abrams reminds me of Scalzi somewhat here. Abrams considered Avery’s race/gender/age important to the story, particularly with regard to how she’s treated and how any of them can be used against her. She considers Wynn and Roseborough black because they just are. Nowhere does it hint they’re white; it’s my bias if I assume they are.

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It was over my head.

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The ending was for me a little too clever, but in keeping with the entire book that way.

I like the idea of not making a big deal about character’s races, but in real life of course, names, physical attributes, accents lead people to make all sorts of assumptions. (Not always correct ones.)

I think the character that bothered me the most was Jared. I’m not convinced he’d still have access to all that technology and intelligence if he was no longer working for the military.

I also thought it was hard to see why the judge would have married Celeste. But smart, powerful men have historically made very odd decisions with regard to women.

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Sorry, I don’t have any inside knowledge about exactly what document Avery signed. If she signed it without knowing what it was, I can’t see how that would be very helpful for a legal proceeding. I don’t have the book any more and need to try to get it from the library.

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So glad I bought the kindle version of this book, so I made my lazy self read enough to paste together the head spinning confusion I had. I truly could not recall important things, but this is a dense plot.

Here goes

Wynns swing vote would allow the merger to happen but knows the merger if approved by the court
Would be overturned by stokes, exon florio, 1988 law which allows president powers to review foreign. Investments within the US

Wynn puts himself in coma to delay the vote, he must not die, or stokes will appoint a recess judge who will deny the merger

Merger while can be weaponized, also can save son, and according to Indira, wake him unharmed from the coma , maybe in few months …….

Avery had to get to the Supreme Court, and out of probate which would usually handle the issue about invalidating the resignation letter

Because it was at the Supreme Court where she could submit the atrocities and implicate Stokes, making his use of exon florio invalid, the goal was to restrict President Stokes from using The Exon florio act.

As long as the justice sleeps in a coma, the court is deadlocked on the decision, which allows for it to move forward…….allows for antidote for Wynn, and future cure of Boursin,

…Avery believed the merger would still happen, a deadlocked court doesn’t stop merger

Now what Wynn did that was totally illegal and false, was to put Stokes finger prints on his bottle of pills, and implicate him trying to kill him or put him in coma ?

But, those finger prints give Agent Lee FBI reason to arrest STOKES as Vice President had had authorized the funding and he knew politically this would sink him, so he pointed fingers ( he was blaming Vance in pr, for conducting atrocities, blaming congress for funding the trials, )

THOSE FINGER PRINTS, which Wynn got at the graduation handshake when he said “ checkmate” got Stokes arrested,

What happens next, isn’t something Wynn knew about,
Vice President Stokes, killed president Cadres, and homeland security who watches everything had the tape,
Vance, the self proclaimed patriot, didn’t like stokes blaming him for everything, he tries to justify to Avery, when he gives her the flash drive with video evidence of stokes killing president - that HE IS A PATRIOT PROTECTING AMERICANS FROM THE BAD GUYS, who he claims are also pursuing various methods of genocide ( pathogens and viruses )

During the Supreme Court hearings, argument, that the 25th admendment allows a president to be removed from office for incapacity, ect
But, didn’t apply to the Supreme Court.
That a resignation letter before an illness or incapacity would have to be produced, to remove a Supreme Court justice .

Well, as Chief Justice realizes, Wynn did have a resignation letter, which Avery says she will use if he isn’t brought out of coma, otherwise he could linger for years in coma, leaving the court without 9 justices, until he dies, So the real resignation letter is critical.

I’m assuming it’s the real letter of resignation that Wynn had Avery sign in his office

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Thank you, @jerseysouthmomchess! That’s a terrific summary. I have the hardcover, and although the book is nice for “flipping,” I really wanted to search for key words like I do when I’m using the kindle.

In real life, the last two administrations have invoked Exon Florio: 1) The Trump administration used it to go after TikTok, arguing that the Chinese-owned app compromised national security; and 2) The Obama administration used it to order Ralls, a Chinese-owned firm, to sell a wind farm it had bought that was deemed too close to a U.S. military base.

Sometimes, not surprisingly, the reasons for applying the Exon-Florio amendment have more complicated underlying motives (as they did, of course, for fictional President Stokes – but hopefully not such dark motives for our own presidents).

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