I never saw the movie but know the premise. We have been cautioned that S is more likely than not to encounter at least one teacher who will think it’s his/her job to cut him down to size. How prevalent is this practice in reputable music schools, in your experience? Just part of the learning curve for a musician or something to really watch out for? Any experience/advice appreciated!
The character in the movie is extreme. This subject came up recently when a few families got together when our kids were home for spring break (all in jazz programs at various music schools.) One parent asked that question and, well, all the kids laughed. The consensus among them was that it’s a stupid movie.
That’s not to say that there aren’t teachers known to be “brutal” with the truth. Jazz great Dave Liebman came to my S’s high school for a masterclass last year. He’d been at Univ of Michigan the day before and the word was out that he’d been pretty rough, and he was indeed rather brutal. My S’s combo played for him and his overall response was, essentially, that they may want to pursue a different career… lol. Mind you, this is the combo that won the Downbeat award for HS small ensemble performance and are now at NEC, Berklee and Michigan this year. He only had one complimentary thing to say and it wasn’t to my S… I think he’s still crushed to this day.
The Dave Liebman anecdote isn’t unique, either. But I don’t think it’s about cutting the students down to size. I think it’s established musicians trying to tell kids how tough and unforgiving the industry is and if a little brutal criticism is going to get you down, you’ll never survive.
My S laughed when I asked him. So far, no abusive jerks at his conservatory. I think Whiplash is a sports movie masquerading as a music movie.
Don’t even get me started on La La Land. Whatup Damien Chazelle?!
Good to hear. Maybe that wasn’t a good analogy to use with music pro parents (especially since I haven’t seen it)! I guess maybe my real question is should you listen to a gut sense that maybe a teacher’s style may trigger your insecurities and make you feel constantly on eggshells - or, at least, if the audition/acceptance/trying to decide process makes you feel that way, is that a red flag? There has to be a balance between being supportive and encouraging and pushing a student to grow, right? And I’m sure it’s different for every individual and match. Generally a fan of listening to the gut instinct but this is uncharted territory…
There is a big difference between what could be seen as harsh criticism and emotional abuse, which is what Whiplash was all about, (and whether the abuse is justified if greatness is the result).
S has certainly been yelled at during a rehearsal, more than once and by more than one professor. He’s been praised and encouraged by the same people, sometimes in the same session. I agree wholeheartedly with @ScreenName48105 that it is about working musicians toughening them up for a brutal industry. The biggest hard-a$$es seem to be the most successful and established musicians. S doesn’t like it, but it does motivate him to make sure he doesn’t get yelled at for the same mistake twice.
Edited to reply to #4-S wouldn’t choose, at this point anyway, to have private study with a teacher with that aggressive approach. But combos and the big bands are taught by a wide range of people, and he has to roll with it.
That’s interesting to hear and makes sense. Thanks!
My D laughed too when I asked about the movie. But she did say that one part of the movie was true for her…something about being on the right beat in rehearsal (not being too fast or too slow - this is for opera)…and the whole group having to stop and stare at her as she tried to get it right. In performance degrees your errors are open to your peers. And getting these small nuances right, when a conductor is focusing on your error in front of your peers can be tough. But what else can they do. It’s part of the process. It does take a certain mental toughness. But she never felt “abused”…definitely embarrassed and wanting to work hard to avoid the situation in the future … but never abused.
I did tell me D (since she female) to know her boundaries (emotionally and physically) and never allow anyone for any reason to cross them. I’ve always told her she has the right to protect herself and walk out of any room if someone crosses a boundary (and she feels unsafe). It’s never happened to her in many years of performing/studying.
@bridgenail Congratulations on talking to your daughter about boundaries in that way. When I was in grad school many years ago, I had a director who learned all the men’s names but would only call the women “soprano”, “mezzo” or by their character name. He threw things at the stage during rehearsals and once called me a “dumb c***” during an orchestra rehearsal. The school kept hiring him back year after year, and we were totally unprotected and had no idea we had the option of standing up for ourselves. I think things are getting better now, but it takes our generation teaching the younger ones that they don’t have to accept abuse to be great musicians or performers.
@NJNYvt I’m sorry that you had to put up with the behavior. That’s completely unacceptable.
I do believe that abusive behavior by teachers is harder to ignore at schools now (but maybe not at some news organization or in politics). My D also had female teachers for UG and grad. Both were older with strong personalities. They would never stand aside in the case of abuse. Her environments have been safe and supportive. If they weren’t, I’d want her to walk out of the room and call me. She’d have my full backing. I really don’t care what’s “supposedly” on the line.
And…I never answered the OP question. My D would NOT do well with a hard-nose. She’s already her biggest critic. She needs someone to build her up. There is no ONE teaching style that creates a success. But as others have mentioned, your student will need to be able to work with all kinds of teachers in the end.
@bridgenail Excellent summary and I agree 100%!
I don’t think running into “that teacher” is unique to music. If your son is a jazz musician, I think he’ll find that his college experience isn’t going to be as wrapped around one teacher. (The kids’ comments were along the lines of “nobody would put up with that crap for a big band…”) Jazz students also take ad-hoc lessons from different teachers. Some teachers have “reputations” and the kids swap stories; almost a badge of honor, “the dude made me CRY…”.
@ScreenName48105 My son is pursuing classical with jazz as a secondary area of interest. He’s looking at having a primary studio teacher but that’s a good point about being exposed to multiple facility members. And plenty of peers with whom to commiserate!
Whiplash is obviously a movie, and as such is an entertainment vehicle and it obviously went for the fences with the teacher, and someone so extreme these days would likely not be employed for that long. That said, though, there are differing levels of how teachers are, there is a difference between a tough, demanding teacher for example and one who sees their mission in cutting down a student. My son studied with someone like that in high school, and some of the things they did looking back were not about music, it was a person with emotional issues acting out…and it can have an impact that is long lasting.
In the violin world, Nathan Millstein told the story about Leopold Auer throwing a chair at Heifetz because of the way he had played in a studio class (and being so scared he wet himself, literally). Pam Frank, who teaches at Curtis, told about her teacher there who was an old school teacher, and she said they often had the attitude that their job was to break you down and it was your job to build yourself up again, and that often was brutal (she herself is a great teacher and has the reputation of building her students up after tearing them apart). I had a laugh the other day, we got a video from Juilliard admissions about how the faculty realizes the precious gift they were given with all these talented students, how they know their job is to nurture them and build them up, not tear them down, and I laughed, because there are teachers like that on the faculty, and there are also quite a few who quite frankly enjoy tearing their students apart and ripping them to shreds, very much old guard, while none are like the guy in whiplash, they are not exactly nurturing either.
That doesn’t mean a teacher can’t be tough and demanding, my son has studied with a number of very high level, demanding teachers, but they also spend a lot of time telling him to stop only criticizing his playing (which he learned from his high school teacher) and to acknowledge the good things along with the bad, that isn’t weak, it is what a good teacher should do IMO. At times teachers can fly off the handle, get frustrated, act out, but if that is the way they routinely teach, that is not teaching shrug.
Our question is, “Who took the drummer student’s music folder from the hallway when he was distracted for a moment?”
Haha my question is, “what self-respecting drummer needs the chart after all that rehearsal?”
Now I really need to see the movie!
We found it to be funny. Such exagerations of what you normally find. It was very offbeat.
It was amusing, in the end I didn’t really like the plot or the resolution, but I loved the guy playing the teacher, it was deliciously over the top and he made it fun to watch.