<p>I'm wondering how the interview would go...</p>
<p>I replied to another thread with this: Below is an actual admissions officer who answers some questions which include a person of S African ancestry. He/She states unequivocally that that African American only refers to descendants of Black Africans.</p>
<p>The OP was entitled "Am i a minority?" and posted on 1/26/07:</p>
<p>"okay, what many of you are saying/suggesting on here is really quite disingenuous...</p>
<p>to the original poster...african-american is meant to describe americans who have black african ancestors. i think most of you know that. if you don't, there's your clarification.</p>
<p>you, however, have a very interesting background. i would check "other" and describe yourself as you have - as having middle eastern ancestors. and yes, that would make you a "minority" in the united states. however, do you identify with middle eastern culture? if you do, it's a good idea to include something in your application about that as it probably makes you unique is some ways and gives you a different perspective on things.</p>
<p>bomgeedad - your comment in post #26 is absolutely incorrect. if a student identifies as a member of a certain racial or ethnic group but has no real connection to it, we aren't going to think of that student as able to contribute anything special to our community, at least with respect to racial or cultural diversity. although this is only one facet of their application, they aren't going to have any kind of "advantage" in admissions if they identify as belonging to a specific racial group unless they show a connection to that community and evidence it has shaped their perspective on things and will be shared in college. and even then, this is just one consideration...</p>
<p>this post has made me think a lot about several students who have applied to my school this year. i just read one student who identified as "hispanic" because their grandmother was born in spain. she is applying from a high school that sends us about 30 applications a year (we usually admit 3-4). disingenuous. another student whose family immigrated to south america during world war two to escape the nazis - white austrian parents born in south america, the student and their siblings in the us. this student identified as "hispanic". disingenuous. yet another student has parents who are white but born in south africa. identified as african-american. disingenuous. and other student who has her "enrollment pending" for a native-american tribe - she indicated she is "native american" - not white and native american, not white and 1/8 native american, but just native american. interesting that there was absolutely nothing about her "heritage" in her application whatsoever; I looked at her siblings' applications (who both came to my school a few years ago and were far superior to her academically) and both indicated they are white only. disingenuous.</p>
<p>indicating something you are not on your college applications is wrong ethically; essentially, if you are identifying with a race or culture you have no connection to, you're lying to us. not cool, and not going to get you any supporters in the admissions office."</p>
<p>Anyone else want to chance it? I hope everyone who lies in this fashion gets caught and suitably rejected.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's an appalling thing to do. The phrase "african-american" was specifically coined as a more socially acceptable alternative to "black" and "negro". It's a fairly modern phrase and has nothing to do with white people from South Africa. Only a naked opportunist would so twist the intent behind that identification to get her white self into college. Colleges ask those questions with the intent of making their campuses more ethnically diverse so as to better model the real world. It is pretty morally reprehensible for the student to do that, and I hope in some way, at least, it comes back to bite her in her deceitful behind. Shame on her.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I do think it's disingenuous, as we all know the reasons for the category and what it is meant to signify. Having said that, white South Africans are Africans and often strongly identify themselves as such. So somewhere in the application I think this could be elaborated, if the person feels that identity strongly.</p>
<p>its kind of funny how ethics and morality have been used to justify why this girl is so wrong...
and what part of keeping people out of colleges using skin color is ethical and moral?
i say fight fire with fire. if colleges want to institute ridiculous policies, then go ahead and use ridiculous means to take advantage of these policies or at least defy them.</p>
<p>seriously, what exactly is affirmative action for? people can't even seem to agree
lets see:
1. diversity- this is such a joke... diversity? really? If background and perspectives are so important... what's the last time they considered diversity of religion in admissions? Wait... they decided keeping Jews out of schools based on religion was wrong, but someone doing the same to Asians and whites is ok. What about a diversity of ideas? When is the last time you heard a college admissions person touting the wide variety of, for instance, political perspectives present on campus? Never? Do you even think any college admissions officier will know the ratio of Republicans to Democrats on campus the same way they can reel off the top of their heads racial statistics?
I laugh even more at those who try and claim colleges need to try and keep colleges like the real world- racially diverse. In 99.999% of the real world, no one will be given a free pass over having to compete with the masses due to skin color. This is of course, ignoring the URMs who are hired as tokens to boost, oh joy, diversity statistics, and are quickly fired when money gets tight.</p>
<ol>
<li>make up for discrimination- really? Then tell me, why don't those of middle eastern descent and Sikhs get affirmative action? What if they lived in the deep south? Do Jews get standards lowered for them because of all the anti-Semitism in the world?</li>
</ol>
<p>Bob, I understand you feel strongly about affirmative action, but that's not the point. She lied on a college application and will likely stand responsible for her actions.</p>
<p>You're fighting a possibly unjust statute wrongly and pointlessly. What she's done won't prove a point at all, and will likely only backfire on her.</p>
<p>This is not even a difficult question people. The answer is simple. White/Caucasian Americans of South African origin are still white/Caucasian. College admissions offices refer to the U.S. Census bureau for that definition, and you can take a look at the definitions for both:</p>
<p>White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Near Easterner, Arab, or Polish.</p>
<p>Black or African American. A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "Black, African Am., or Negro," or provide written entries such as African American, Afro American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian.</p>
<p>Black</a> or African American persons, percent, 2000</p>
<p>Clearly this means that South African "whites" of all origins, because they originated in Europe, do not originate from Africa, and therefore are not considered "blacks" or "African Americans".</p>
<p>How many times must I post this to stop these threads?</p>
<p>I understand the anger some feel towards colleges looking for more ethnic diversity on campus. My kids are white and are not sought after for their ethnicity. However, they do benefit from such programs. I would most certainly not want them on a campus where the student body was virtually all of one or two ethnic groups. In fact we specifically looked for schools with stronger diversity policies for that reason. Yeah, they may not get the same small boost to their applications, but they will have opportunities in one place or another, and hopefully make friends there from different backgrounds and cultures. It's an important part of the experience, and maybe I feel that all the more because we live in a mostly white community. I want them to experience things differently in college. It pains me to see the animosity it ignites in some. Quite sad.</p>
<p>Thanks, tokyorevelation9, for the citation of the Census defintions of ethnic groups used in the United States. Other countries have other definitions, and I prefer (as perhaps many people posting in this thread prefer) to emphasize the common humanity of all people. But when a college application form has an ethnic identification question (which in all cases is OPTIONAL for the student to ignore or fill out), there is an expected categorization assumed there by relation to various United States federal regulations, and an Afrikaner or white South African of other European descent would have no ground for checking any other box than "white." It is fine to also indicate the country of birth and more details of ethnicity if that is important to the applicant. </p>
<p>I hope someday the federal government gets out of the business of encouraging colleges to ask these questions, but meanwhile students should remember that </p>
<p>a) the questions are OPTIONAL and answers can be omitted entirely, </p>
<p>and </p>
<p>b) the categories are not made up by each student on the spot, but are guided by contentious federally defined categories (supplemented by state-defined categories in some states).</p>
<p>"It's the difference between being from a group of people stolen from their homes, stuck on ships, beaten, chained, sold into slavery, whipped, released into oppressive poverty and Jim Crow laws, and forced to struggle to for equality...compared to a group that dominated the native black population through brutal apartheid and economic exploitation to further their own wealth. Hmmm...Yeah, that's pretty much the same. I see no difference."</p>
<p>I couldn't agree more. Whites have subjugated Africans since the the 1800's. And to come to the US and try to claim the race of the very same people your ancestors hurt is unethical and disturbing.</p>
<p>I agree that this is inappropriate, and shows lack of character on the part of somebody who does it.
But...I just wonder...when colleges are putting together their figures that show how much diversity they have, would THEY count white South Africans as "African-Americans?" I hope not.</p>
<p>The college reporting to the federal Department of Education is the basis for the college reporting to the Common Data Set, and that is all based on the federal definitions of ethnic groups.</p>
<p>"They have no reason to be angry over what skin color she is.
That sounds like a correction description of her race"</p>
<p>"they didn't ask for skin color, they asked for race. technically that's hers. she answered their question honestly, and if it's not the answer they wanted then they asked the wrong question."</p>
<p>Oh my god, are you kidding? It is NOT a correct description of her race. It is a description of her origin in terms of place (and she lived there for 2 months?). It is duplicitous to put that as an answer to a question that is used to identify minority status. I think she should be ashamed of herself, frankly.</p>
<p>"they wont reject her for that, give me a break"</p>
<p>They should.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But why would anyone want to do that?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>ummmm.. because they want to get into college? And I think she did absolutely nothing wrong - everyone is saying how what she did isn't "morally right" and how "disgusting" it is, but no one seems able to give a concrete reason for her not to have marked that she is african american. Anyhow, African American is just PC mumbo jumbo. Should a latin American of Spanish origin mark that that he or she is "caucasian?"</p>
<p>Ernie H: I am not sure I'd go with morally wrong, since technically speaking it one could make a stretch of an argument that it's the truth (see discussion below). I think the morality of it from the standpoint of the individual is in some ways actually beside the point. But ethically speaking, I think it's the wrong thing to do. One ought to know that these categories were established to capture certain situations. If one doesn't know, one's education has been really, really poor and limited. And one ought to know that capturing these situations is, or with a very strong possibility is, important to the school to which one is applying, and therefore, marking oneself as an African-American in such a situation is entirely disingenuous. We've already heard an admissions counselor weigh in on these issues in a previous post. Like Chinese- or Mexican- or Korean-American, the category of African-American connotes an ethnic distinction amongst American citizenry. I have a friend who is Vietnamese in ethnicity, French by birthplace, and now an American citizen. He is a Vietnamese American not a French American, according to all standard meanings of those phrases. One can make a justifiable philosophical argument that he is every bit as Franco American as he is Vietnamese American. Maybe that covers the moral question in one's own mind. But the ethical question in the view of the school to which one is applying is the most important. And if the school did find out that in fact she is white but has marked herself as African American, your utilitarian approach here would backfire quite possibly insuring she didn't get in:</p>
<p>
[quote]
ummmm.. because they want to get into college?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And if someone is strongly against Affirmative Action, as some people have argued here, isn't the really defensible position to not try to game that particular system to one's advantage? After all, if one needs the boost of misrepresenting one's ethnicity, isn't that corroborating exactly what all these folks say is wrong with Affirmative Action in the first place?</p>
<p>^Ernie, actually as numerous people in this thread have pointed out, she WAS in fact lying about her race, as she is Caucasian. And she knew it, its not like she was confused.</p>
<p>If someone marked that they were "Native American," wouldn'r this be technically correct if they were born in the US? It would still be dumb and disingenuous.</p>
<p>Yeah, either she truly considers herself an African American (OP, has she ever referred to herself as one?) or she's actively trying to deceive the admission officers. I believe it's the latter, though I could be wrong.</p>
<p>i think it was the wrong thing to do as everyone knows that african-american is supposed to refer to blacks
that being said, african-american is such a bs term in my opinion because it's trying to be politically correct but is ambiguous. technically, african-american can be a white from africa. i know this is a satirical sarcastic crude joking writer, but I</a> am a genius, you are not. has a point in his first article. </p>
<p>also, i hate hate hate hate hate affirmative action, i think it's the biggest load of bull ever. admissions should be based solely on MERIT MERIT MERIT</p>
<p>You know the simple way to avoid this problem in the future? Rather than making the option "African-American," make it "Black."</p>
<p>
[quote]
If someone marked that they were "Native American," wouldn'r this be technically correct if they were born in the US? It would still be dumb and disingenuous.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Most countries have always conflated ethnicity with nationality, but we don't -- and this is where the confusion really comes in. The meaning we assert for phrases like Italian American or Chinese American dances between referring to ethnic heritage or simple heritage of citizenship, though it does more often fall along ethnic lines. </p>
<p>As an extreme example, I worked a bit in Taiwan and would always be visited at work by a fellow American who was of Chinese descent (I am not). My Chinese was significantly better than hers and my co-workers would say, "How can that be that she doesn't speak Chinese? She's Chinese." -- as if her ethnicity, her nationality and her linguistic abilities were all co-determined. In fact, the Chinese govt. had a long history of never recognizing a foreign-born Chinese person as having any nationality apart from Chinese; I think they may have slowly started to reverse those policies.For Germans, the descriptor German would assume one was white -- and for most still does I am pretty sure -- and being born in Germany didn't confer "Germanness." Being born in any country, from our viewpoint on the other hand, confers citizenry of that country or at least ought to if it's to be similar to our citizenship. </p>
<p>The Native in Native American is an exception to this and it is not literally about having been born in America, in the sense that "native American" is. One could have Native American who was born and grew up in France, but was still Native American. One could not have an American who was born in France who was a native American of course; he or she would be a foreign-born American. So, in all cases, a white person describing him/herself as a Native American would be a lie; in all cases, Native American refers to ethnicity. I think there is an argument that a South African is an African American on the other hand, because in the case of all these descriptors the first part of it is more fluid -- i.e. it can refer to ethnicity or prior citizenship. </p>
<p>Now having said all that, if one has to adopt these sorts of parsing of words to justify one's stand, it should become apparent that for any practical purposes, using African American in the case mentioned is unequivocally a lie.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You know the simple way to avoid this problem in the future? Rather than making the option "African-American," make it "Black."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I love this. I love the simplicity of this. Let's undo all the effort -- either misplaced or not, I am not one to judge -- that went into finally getting folks to move away from the use of "Black" to using "African American." I love the lack of historical perspective and lack of political correctness that this answer implies. Brilliant.</p>