<p>WOW.
she's that insecure about college admissions?</p>
<p>No, BedHead and Tyler09. What the common app specifically asks is: "If you ** wish to be identified** with a particular ethnic group, please check all that apply:"</p>
<p>As one option, then, it gives "African American (OR) African (OR) Black."</p>
<p>Please don't tell me a South African isn't African.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As one option, then, it gives "African American (OR) African (OR) Black."</p>
<p>Please don't tell me a South African isn't African.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ernie H: </p>
<p>God no, as you can see what I said several posts back:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Having said that, white South Africans are Africans and often strongly identify themselves as such. So somewhere in the application I think this could be elaborated, if the person feels that identity strongly.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But this doesn't really change the nature of this discussion one iota. The phraseology in the instructions simply refers to one's permission to opt in or out of ethnic self-identification. It doesn't let one off the hook of being accurate and truthful in that representation. What if, to use a silly example, I've developed a strong sense that I am a latin lover or a bandalero and because I FEEL that I am Latin at heart I can mark myself Hispanic (I am white, non-Hispanic). Using an interpretation that I think you are proposing, I could argue that I "wish to be identified" as an Hispanic. Clearly, that's not what this "wish to be identified" implies. It's about opting in or out of stating what in fact one is.</p>
<p>So, we are back to the fact that although there may be technical leeway, technical honesty, in the white South African identifying herself as an African, for all practical purposes, it's disingenuous. One simple way to gauge this would be to ask a question of yourself -- and ideally of the person who marked herself as African American: would she do the same thing if she were requested to supply a photo of herself with her application? No, I am not suggesting that having African American blood always mean a person will not be white, but I think you can see where I am going with this. She probably wouldn't if there was a possibility that the school would not only dismiss her claims to being African American but also might actually downgrade her application -- unless she provided a clear explanation for why she had thus classified herself this way.</p>
<p>Wait, make yourself clear. First, you claim that "The phraseology in the instructions...doesn't let one off the hook of being accurate and truthful." Then, you admit that "there may be technical leeway, technical honesty" in what the person in question did. Huh? </p>
<p>Anyway, "disingenuous" is not an adequate criticism for something like this. I agree that the colleges probably don't mean white South Africans when they say African, etc., but they the ones to blame for being unclear and/or succumbing to meaningless PC terminology. The question is not whether the person answered the question in exactly the way affirmative action advocates would have her answer it, it is whether she could - on a purely technical level - be punished for what she did. I applaud the girl in question for beating the system, at its own game. </p>
<p>Also, you and I can't speculate on whether or not she would check the same box were she required to submit a photo. If I were in her place, I honestly don't know what I would do - it's definitely not as clear as you seem to imply, though.</p>
<p>Aren't you able to check "all that apply?"</p>
<p>That's what I remember from my applications so far. If so, she should be checking African-American AND Caucasian. If not, I believe African-American is a good description of her and there is nothing wrong with it.</p>
<p>If your family was white but lived in Japan for some time and you were born there (unlikely, I know) would it be wrong to write down Asian?</p>
<p>I know a girl at my school who is white, was born in South Africa, lived in Israel for a lot of her childhood, speaks fluent Hebrew and then came to the United States. No one in her family never lived in the U.S.</p>
<p>African-American is no different from German-American, Italian-American, Australian-American, or Asian-American. African-American has just been used for a long time as a more politically correct alternative to "black" for so long that its true meaning has been lost.</p>
<p>She is clear to check the box for African-American!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Wait, make yourself clear. First, you claim that "The phraseology in the instructions...doesn't let one off the hook of being accurate and truthful." Then, you admit that "there may be technical leeway, technical honesty" in what the person in question did. Huh?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Read what I wrote to you in post 34. It should all be clear. Another phrase could be used: the spirit vs. the letter of the categories to be used.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Anyway, "disingenuous" is not an adequate criticism for something like this. I agree that the colleges probably don't mean white South Africans when they say African, etc., but they the ones to blame for being unclear and/or succumbing to meaningless PC terminology. The question is not whether the person answered the question in exactly the way affirmative action advocates would have her answer it, it is whether she could - on a purely technical level - be punished for what she did. I applaud the girl in question for beating the system, at its own game.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Disingenuous. Dishonest. Essentially those are interchangeable words here. That is most definitely an adequate criticism here. Look, if a college determines that the girl was disingenuous in how she presented her ethnicity, they are essentially calling her a liar.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, you and I can't speculate on whether or not she would check the same box were she required to submit a photo. If I were in her place, I honestly don't know what I would do - it's definitely not as clear as you seem to imply, though.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>We can speculate, but we can't definitively answer. I speculate that she is smart enough to know that her self-classification could (if it were discovered) be construed as dishonest by the colleges to which she's applying, and that she is taking a calculated risk. It is possible that she is a very proud African and/or disagrees with Affirmative Action. In the latter two cases, to shield herself from claims of being dishonest, she could explain her self-classification just to put all claims of disingenuousness to rest.</p>
<p>Regarding your claim that it is meaningless PC terminology, give me a break. Putting aside the larger sociological and economic contexts of the discussion, the classifications are both required by the Fed. Govt. and construed by the schools as a potentially quite meaningful data point respecting the person's admissibility or not. Who really cares what you and I think?</p>
<p>I'm surprised I'm the only actual white South African to respond to this so far and yet my opinion is being discredited.</p>
<p>I'm more against the term African-American as a term for black than anyone, but it is disingenous (insincere/calculating) to intentionally mislead an admissions officer, as I said earlier and Bedhead reiterates.</p>
<p>Let's be honest, the intention of this girl is probably not to make a political statement. Her intention is to gain an advantage. If she marked it down and gave a clear explanation of her background, then it would be a noble attempt to demonstrate the faults in the system, but from what I gather, the intention is to hide the truth in order to mislead admissions officers into believing something that is not true. Pretty much what Bedhead said...</p>
<p>I could say I found a cure for a disease. It's true, I went to the doctor and he gave me an antibiotic, that's finding a cure for a disease. Wouldn't it be implied if I said I found a cure for a disease that I found one that had not previously been cured? Without any further explanation, it is a blatant attempt to misrepresent who you are and what you did.</p>
<p>Notthatgood4:</p>
<p>I noted that you called African-American a bunch of politically correct mumbo jumbo in your original post. Apparently a lot of folks who see no problem with what she did would agree with that, and others who do have a problem with it do as well.</p>
<p>I also note that you said:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Especially when you consider the history of Apartheid in the nation and the terrible ways my fellow caucasians treated the native blacks. To use this oppressive history to your advantage so you can get an edge in college admissions really shows what kind of character you have.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Many of the white South Africans I have known (I worked there for a time) had a lot of moral qualms about the history of Apartheid. And most of them were born into it -- i.e. didn't really choose it, at least as a place to grow up, though arguably they implicitly did as adults. That would be a tough thing to realize, as you came of age, that the moral basis of your nation's governing system caused you a lot of moral qualms -- and it was easier said than done for people to just up and leave. </p>
<p>This is one thing, what I stated above.</p>
<p>Amplifying what you said: it's quite another, and quite indicative of character, to use the classification African American in this country as a white South African expecting special breaks. The moral outrage many people feel is justified. And in any case, the outrage a college would feel is almost certain -- and would likely disqualify her in admissions process if the college found out.</p>
<p>I guess most Americans can't really look beyond a small, domestically-driven debate about political correctness and Affirmative Action to see that. In this case, s*** is s***.</p>
<p>Thanks for making it clearer.</p>
<p>You obviously don't see my point. Disingenuous here is not the same as dishonest, because the person technically answered the question correctly! The fault is the colleges, for not making their questions more specific. The "spirit" of the question (which, by the way, is racist anyway, though that is not the point here,) is a very relative term that could never be used in any attempt to punish the applicant. In other words, if the college tried to punish the applicant, its decision would not stand in a courtroom.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I love this. I love the simplicity of this. Let's undo all the effort -- either misplaced or not, I am not one to judge -- that went into finally getting folks to move away from the use of "Black" to using "African American." I love the lack of historical perspective and lack of political correctness that this answer implies. Brilliant.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't understand this. Do you enjoy living under the pretense of "political correctness?" I would argue that the effort you so describe was wasted if it only succeeded in changing the term by which refer to people of African descent. What does it matter if we're just changing words? "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." If someone is racist, calling someone black or African-American isn't going to take the hate out of their speech. I think the effort you mention did succeed in changing the hateful mindsets of many Americans, though. I think the switch from "black" to "African-American" was a byproduct brought on by the unnecessary shame of people who did nothing wrong to make up for the wrongs of their forefathers.</p>
<p>
[quote]
-- either misplaced or not, I am not one to judge --
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This phrase was added mostly as an effort to not get into this debate. In my day-to-day life, I use the phrase African-American consistently as a politeness and as a sign of respect for the notions that you put in your post, Handyandy. I can't remember the last time I said black in any situation where someone might take offense.</p>
<p>I just thought that the simple answer, "hey, why don't we call them 'black'" was really funny. It was so devoid of any consciousness of how we came to use the term African American in the first place. That's all. I was sidestepping the larger debate to try to bring to the fore who ridiculous -- and yet elegant -- I thought the notion was.</p>
<p>I wouldn't read too much into it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
white=Caucasian even if you are from Africa.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Dictionary<br>
Caucasian |k</p>
<p>
[quote]
You obviously don't see my point. Disingenuous here is not the same as dishonest, because the person technically answered the question correctly! The fault is the colleges, for not making their questions more specific. The "spirit" of the question (which, by the way, is racist anyway, though that is not the point here,) is a very relative term that could never be used in any attempt to punish the applicant. In other words, if the college tried to punish the applicant, its decision would not stand in a courtroom.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, you don't understand that the word dishonest and disingenuous are synonymous. Here's a clue: if you get a call from an admissions officer saying that your application was disingenuous, that's a very bad thing. You can claim all sorts of technicalities you want. The girl lied, not technically perhaps, but for all practical purposes. I don't really know the ultimate legalities of the question and frankly I think that's rather irrelevant. What's more relevant is that the admissions office will find it's a lie and this will not dispose them favorably toward your application. That's what I mean by "for all practical purposes." You''ll likely get rejected far before you ever get your day in court, if the college finds out. And you won't have a basis to question that decision. Now, if your admission is rescinded on this basis, and that is explicitly stated, I don't know what the decisions in a court of law would be. Maybe it'd be a toss-up. But questions of morality and ethics are determined by the court system -- or shouldn't be.</p>
<p>Again, go back and re-read post 34 that I wrote for you, and read it until YOU understand that I realize you could claim she didn't TECHNICALLY lie, but that was she did was nonetheless a lie. You can disagree with this interpretation, but trust me I got your point a long time ago. And I think you are simply wrong that's all.</p>
<p>And judging by post 22, an admissions counselor would side with me.</p>
<p>You know the simple way to avoid this problem in the future? Rather than making the option "African-American," make it "Black."</p>
<p>i'm with handyandy. to me, that's not offensive. that's clear, and makes it impossible to roundabout the question by using south african to imply dark skinned. </p>
<p>to clarify, my original post was not condoning what she did, it was just looking at it from her perspective.</p>
<p>"Caucasian doesn't include South African."</p>
<p>Actually these terms are not related at all. South African is a nationality, meaning "from the nation of South Africa". "Caucasian" in this context refers to a racial/ethnic designation, the other context either being linguistic or geological referring to the Caucasus mountains in central Asia. </p>
<p>With that said, you are wrong mj93, because white South Africans are "• white-skinned; of European origin.", unlike the black South African majority, who are descended from various regional tribes including the Zulu, and are darker skinned. Therefore, it would be wrong to say that South Africans can't be Caucasian, because clearly the white ones fit the bill.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Caucasian doesn't include South African.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And so, I infer, you are saying that the only logical classification she could choose for herself was African or African-American. </p>
<p>Is that what you are getting at?</p>
<p>So, if I was born and grew up in Indonesia (I am white), I would classify myself as of Asian ancestry on this classification schema?</p>
<p>I can't be understanding you correctly. I hope I am not understanding you correctly. I don't see Australia on this definition list; is Mel Gibson an Australian aborigine, or a non-Caucasian therefore?</p>
<p>I am in awe.</p>
<p>It's kind of being dishonest if you know what I mean. </p>
<p>Can you put it on there without getting in trouble? Yes.
Should you put it on there? Probably not, especially if you know it's referring to ethnicity/race as opposed to origin.</p>
<p>It's like saying that because I'm born in America, I can put "Native American" on my college apps. Yes, I am a native of America, but no, I'm not affiliated with a tribe.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That's what I remember from my applications so far. If so, she should be checking African-American AND Caucasian. If not, I believe African-American is a good description of her and there is nothing wrong with it.</p>
<p>If your family was white but lived in Japan for some time and you were born there (unlikely, I know) would it be wrong to write down Asian?</p>
<p>I know a girl at my school who is white, was born in South Africa, lived in Israel for a lot of her childhood, speaks fluent Hebrew and then came to the United States. No one in her family never lived in the U.S.</p>
<p>African-American is no different from German-American, Italian-American, Australian-American, or Asian-American. African-American has just been used for a long time as a more politically correct alternative to "black" for so long that its true meaning has been lost.</p>
<p>She is clear to check the box for African-American!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>She is clear to check African-American if she also checks White according to the admissions officer in post 22. And that is something that respects both her original nationality (South African) and her ethnicity (White or Caucasian) and could not therefore be taken as a lie. You said it best at the beginning of this post.</p>
<p>What ever happened to just being honest? A white person is a white person and should just say so. All this gaming of the based on geographic technicalities is both ridiculous and dishonest.</p>
<p>She's going to look pretty foolish when she enrolls as an "African American" and the president of the campus Black Student Union comes around to recruit her to join the club. Will she wear her colorful ancestral African tribal clothing around campus? Will she share her soul food recipes that she learned from her bothers and sisters in the African American community? Will she write her freshman English essays about her experiences with the challenges of being an African American in modern America? Gimme a break. Why can't people just be honest?</p>
<p>Even if you are a white in south africa, you aren't one of the africans. Thats why affirmative action is targeted towards black Africans in south Africa. You're what ever colonizing country you're from (ie British, French, ect).</p>
<p>She is not good to go with checking african american and i'm sure admissions would be perfectly justified in rescinding her admissions for lying. It simply shows lack of integrity.</p>