<p>It's a great school.</p>
<p>Who gets in? Only 38% of the student body receives ANY need-based aid (33% of freshman.) Admissions department has to work really, really hard to get 'yieldable' numbers like that.</p>
<p>Sometimes the ability to trade off SATs for ability to pay the freight is worth it (and I don't have any problem with that.)</p>
<p>Thanks for your post, mythmom, and we can certainly agree to disagree (if we even do, I'm not sure :) ).</p>
<p>Oddly enough, I have seen Bates characterized as a grade deflation school (I'd have to search for it, though. There was a discussion way back on cc and I've seen one or more articles about that in terms of which schools have become more grade-inflated over recent years). I don't have anything to go on wrt that. I only know my own kid's grades. Although I know quite a number of students and alums, I've never asked to see their transcripts ;).</p>
<p>I also was struck by how much "yieldable" played into the adcom discussions, as this reporter saw it. </p>
<p>We all know yield is an important consideration at most schools (HYP need not apply on this issue). But I hadn't expected to see it stated so explicitly so often.</p>
<p>I think I understand it though. Bates is a top 25-ish LAC, not a top 4 LAC. I'm sure it has a number of applicants also in the pool for higher ranked Bowdoin, let's say. Or AWS, or HYPSM. So it surely concerns itself quite a bit with yield, maybe (sadly) for USN&WR reasons; maybe because it wants to get the class it is trying to so carefully assemble to actually materialize - totally understandable.</p>
<p>I wouldn't say that a B student is necessarily weaker than an A student. They might have strength in different areas.</p>
<p>I also thing that when an adcom says someone has a "commitment to service" they don't say it lightly BECAUSE they see it so often, that commenting on it would get mundane, so I would say an adcom actually taking notice of the service means that it must have been in some way remarkable.</p>
<p>Many schools admit legacies. As has been stated earlier, many schools also admit students who run fast, or can throw a football. Many schools would admit a student that could donate a new science wing. All at the expense of other students. A (especially) private college is a business, and I don't think it's surprising that it occasionally makes business decisions.</p>
<p>'Course I'm biased, but that's my read on the situation.</p>
<p>Re jmmom's observation, Bates tour guides characterize the school as one with marked grade deflation. I heard that point made on two tours, taken several years apart, with my children. Unless the grading policies have changed markedly in the last couple of years I'd assume grade deflation is still prevalent at Bates, or perceived to be prevalent. In fact, I think grade deflation is somewhat characteristic of a number of LACs--certainly the two that I'm most familiar with as a parent, and others whose grading policies I know only by reputation. </p>
<p>In addition, the issue of yield is probably a particularly tricky one for schools at Bates's level, and while yield is no longer considered in USNWR rankings, retention and graduation rates are. For most small schools, the ablity to put together a class with all the right specialties and balances must be a key consideration. Especially for a small school in a relatively remote setting, putting together a community of students who can contribute in all sorts of ways and repreent some degree of socioeconomic deiversity is undoubtedly an ongoing challenge.</p>
<p>With 62% of students (68% of freshman) receiving absolutely no financial assistance, Pell Grantees below 10%, and the majority of those receiving aid likely in the top quintile, I doubt that socio-economic diversity is considered "a challenge" (except in figuring out how not to end up with a class that has too much of it.)</p>
<p>They aren't alone.</p>
<p>"Me? I don't feel comfortable drawing global conclusions about any college based on one short paragraph."</p>
<p>But apparently jmmom you have no problem referring to someone as "odd" based on a single thread here on CC because they don't share YOUR perspective about legacy admits. Is this the part where I get to refer to you in a demeaning way because I disagree with you? Oh wait... or do only "Senior" members get to denigrate fellow posters and draw incorrect conclusions namely, "Clearly you have an axe to grind with Bates." This despite my earlier assertion that I did not. I object to legacy admits in general, not just at Bates. And for the record I draw a distinction between an athlete who is evaluated on his own ability and a kid who has relied on a parent's legacy status to be accepted. This post has changed my perspective though. Now I realize some schools are desperate to fill the classrooms with full pay kids from wealthy families especially if they are in relatively remote areas and yield is a major concern. No wonder they have to fly in URM's for interviews and thier demographic is so slanted toward wealthy white kids and the occasional full pay international students. Furthermore jmmom I did not mean to bore you by raising an issue that has "been "debated" ad infinitum." You were under no obligation to join us.</p>
<p>Jeez... harsh.</p>
<p>"This post has changed my perspective though. Now I realize some schools are desperate to fill the classrooms with full pay kids from wealthy families especially if they are in relatively remote areas and yield is a major concern."</p>
<p>Good realization.</p>
<p>
Mythmom, you and I have talked on another thread about our daughters at Barnard and how difficult courses are at Barnard. My daughter had a 28 ACT (620 SAT CR/ 580 SAT math); she had no high school math beyond advanced algebra; only 2 years of lab sciences; she was coming from a public school. Only 1 AP (1 semester of a year-long course) and a couple of honors courses before her senior year. </p>
<p>She was admitted during the most selective year in the entire history of Barnard. Her test scores are firmly below Barnard's median score range. No legacy here. (No money!) No URM; no special hook.</p>
<p>Someone on the Barnard ad com must have looked at her application and said "She'll do fine here." I can't imagine that they admitted her without some discussion. </p>
<p>Obviously they were right. My d. has a very high GPA along with an ambitious courseload. She struggled a little bit the first semester with two advanced courses she opted to take, but she hit her stride and I have not heard a word of complaint since. (Except that it turns out that you have to do math for astronomy, so there was an urgent request a few weeks ago for me to ship out her graphing calculator.)</p>
<p>I'm sure that people, knowing my daughter's test scores and record, could conclude that Barnard isn't all that rigorous -- which you know would not be true. (Our daughters have similar majors, so it isn't a matter of an easy major either). </p>
<p>I'm sure a solid "B" student at a well regarded Northeastern prep school probably will enter any college with a better foundation that my d. got at her California public. I'm sure the ad com at Bates and the ad com at Barnard get reasonably good information about the quality of the schools their applicants come from. Obviously, the kid who is a legacy got in because of factors that didn't apply to my daughter -- and my daughter was admitted to Barnard as well as colleges like Berkeley and Chicago because of the strengths demonstrated in a lopsided profile. (My guess is that the ad coms were intrigued by her and felt she was worth the risk - or perhaps it was simply obvious that she filled a niche where math & science and standardized tests were not all that relevant). </p>
<p>But its not all that impossibly difficult to do the work at the elite schools if a student is reasonably bright and willing to put in effort. My son had straight A's and stellar test scores and the most-rigorous curriculum his high school could offer (5 lab sciences, 5 years of math, every AP they had) -- and he came darn near to flunking out of a LAC that I feel is much less rigorous than Barnard. Stats don't tell the whole story -- a "solid" student at least offers consistency.</p>
<p>It was interesting that the reporter never mentions the need-aware part of the equation, when, as mini points out, Bates's financial position makes them more need-aware than some peer institutions. I came across the FA numbers for Bates a couple of months ago and was floored at the time. Compared to some NESCAC and similar schools, Bates just does not project the image that the vast majority of its students come from privileged backgrounds.</p>
<p>Bates does say it's need blind. I specifically asked the question when I was there. I couldn't find it on their website (it may indeed be there), or in the guidebooks (it may indeed be there), but that's what they said when I specifically asked them.</p>
<p>Calmom: Thanks for pointing that out. See my previous post -- mea culpa. I was incredibly stupid and cranky the day I posted those remarks about Bates.</p>
<p>I have been hoping to avoid this (only a little joking), but since I will be forever haunted by my own verbose unnecessary nastiness I will share the origin of those remarks.</p>
<p>S's best friend, a lesser student in every way in high school but just by a whisker, a wonderful boy, according to his mother is running two A+'s and two A's at midterm time. Since I don't know anyone (including kids at Harvard and Yale) who had that kind of experience, my kids sure didn't, I concluded that Bates' grading is less rigorous (may not be true but seems true) or that the courses were easier. I projected this onto the article in an entirely inappropriate way as jmmom points out.</p>
<p>Up until now I haven't sunk to such pettiness on any post on CC. Of course, just my luck, some of the sharpest eyes posters would read and call me out. Good work ladies! And another, yup, mea culpa, my bad.</p>
<p>Look, in my corner of the world -- where Bates has been the most popular of the Maine LACs, recently -- it's fairly clear that the kids who are applying and being accepted there are not kids who are in the running for Williams or Amherst, etc. They are not dumb, they are not lazy, and they are not (all) rich, but they are not hyper-achievement types or bent on world conquest. Almost by definition, students who are attracted to a LAC in Maine are looking for a relatively low-key, nurturing, small-scale environment. They are not posting here when they are high school sophomores trying to figure out whether Goldman Sachs will hire them if they don't place into Honors Analysis their college freshman year.</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong or disreputable with being a normal smart kid, with stumbling over some of your courses in high school, maybe getting distracted now and again by a crush, a family death, a championship season. With actually learning something, sometimes with effort and difficulty. What's more, some of these "tortoises" do eventually pass the "hares" along the road of life.</p>
<p>By and large, I don't think the Bates applicant pool -- except for what are probably some obvious safety-school applicants -- is chock full of shiny, perfect kids. So it's a bit disingenuous to imagine that, when they take Richie Rich, they are turning down Condolezza Rice to make space. As far as I can tell, they take good kids, kids who can make a real contribution in and out of the classroom, now and later.</p>
<p>I know "yieldability" is an important value there and elsewhere, too. It's not all USNWR-watching. It's trying to assemble a good class, and create a good spirit. I know some faculty at one of Bates' competitors very well, and they have told me that their college is absolutely willing to take a risk on a student who has a good attitude and who really wants to be there. That's a kind of student they -- as LAC faculty -- love. They can really make a difference, that's part of what makes them happy in their jobs. They don't mind having a few smarty-pantses around, too, of course, but they are much more engaged in the process of molding kids who are not fully formed yet than the Harvard faculty is.</p>
<p>Mythmom, as a steady, kind, humorous poster on numerous topics, who also takes the risk of revealing your own family's foibles, I think you can be excused for the occasional crank-moment. </p>
<p>I am a lot more offended by Nightingale whose tone is much like a shrill banshee. People who know my posts will be shocked I could ever utter such a harsh word.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I object to legacy admits in general, not just at Bates.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Thank you, NIghtingale. There you stating your ideas in ways that are palatable to me as a reader. </p>
<p>So far, so good. Now, how do you picture me? Am I wealthy mom whose kids attend a private school? Nope. I'm a middle class mom whose kid might have been in the early wave of discovery at Amherst that it was time to better represent the 14% middleclass kids they were missing. He was plucked out of a humdrum rural public high school because of high achievement (despite, not because of, his school) and a humane approach that saturated his essays. He wrote about family moves, his dog, his brother and sister, and a funny experience at a summer job. He had superior SAT's and grades. He took their "most rigorous courseload" (the school offered 2 AP's.). He had not a single connection. We were astonished when they accepted him; plucked him right off the rural mountaintop. </p>
<p>When I asked him about the rich, preppie legacies I imagined (and feared a bit), he said he was grateful to the few around that he met. Without them, he wouldn't have gotten a need-based scholarship. Without them, he wouldn't have cool people to visit on holidays in places we can't afford. They're a handful but they add a lot to anyone...er, don't get me wrong now...FRIENDLY. </p>
<p>Legacy plays a strong role also at some colleges with interesting things going on intellectually, but located in less appealing locations. Oberlin is one. My D attended there. Oh boy, was she "yieldable"! They saw two alumni parents and 2 alumni uncles. She applied ED. She adored Oberlin after visiting it last, having visited 6 other fine LAC's (hoping to avoid the family alma mater). She couldn't help herself; she just loved the place. She also had all the usual qualifications, but more importantly was ready to move heaven and earth to go there. Legacies are loyal puppies and now she's one, too.</p>
<p>We have not much to donate financially, but we have created 3 career internships during their Winter Term, feeding and housing students while they work with us (innercity classroom teaching, and now this year one is coming to catalogue my husband's collection of Biblical Archaeology). I'm a big, sometimes overly enthusiastic promoter for my alma mater. I promised her I wouldn't make a big deal of it while she was there, but now that she's a graduate, I feel free again to sing its praises.</p>
<p>Are you going to bite off my head and hers because she was a legacy admit?</p>
<p>I pick up your sense of social justice and outrage, but I think you have to also consider that a college is a community of learners and a private business. If they admit some who are ridiculously loyal (me) or ridiculously wealthy (not me). </p>
<p>BTW your use of "Daddy's money" is so outre I can't believe it. You are also being read by some serious professional women on this site.</p>
<p>I just can't believe everyone's been so polite to you.</p>
<p>I can see a college accepting a kid who is thrilled to be there, rather than someone who is upset that they are having to go to their safety. I also don't really have a problem with colleges deciding that academics is not the first sorting (much less the only) mechanism. </p>
<p>I heard an interesting story about the med school my dh teaches at. A school of public health commented that their best applicants always seemed to come from this school. They said there must be something that the admissions committee picks out in these kids that makes them much more public service oriented than kids from some of the more prestigious med schools. In fact, they like them so much now, they look at all the applicants from his school first and then go on to look at kids from other schools.</p>
<p>I went to a (then top-rated) prep school. The headmistress told us they deliberately picked a fair number of kids who had been B students in junior high because they believed that the quality of their education could make a difference and turn many of these girls into real scholars.</p>
<p>Mythmom, I just want to second paying3tuition's comments ... I agree that the cranky comment was out of character and to be excused & foregiven.... its just that my own sore point is comments about the quality of the school based on assumptions about grades & test scores.... especially seeing my d. treat her studies so seriously. </p>
<p>I'd take another parent's report of first semester midterm grades with a grain of salt in any case. Maybe the parent is exaggerating, maybe its wishful thinking on the kid's part, maybe the kid is doing well but happened to sign up for courses where his high school prep is strong and he is getting mostly review at the beginning.</p>
<p>I read the comment "High energy; too wound up for the culture here" as "too high achieving".
If Bates does have need-blind admissions, they sure don't want to broadcast it on their website.
Pity the high achieving, middle-class kid applying to Bates.
Of course there are enough kids for which Bates is a great fit to fill the class.</p>
<p>I'm all for "fit". With over 3000 colleges and uiniversities in this country (or whatever the real number is) I think it's just fine for private colleges to pick and choose. If you don't like their criteria, or don't like their politics or whatever just say "no" to your child and move on to one of the other 2999 colleges or a public college.</p>
<p>High energy could be high achieving, but the fact is we don't HAVE a lot of superintensestudyallthetimecompletelyobsessed - which I suppose could mean high achieving, but maybe just achieving in a DIFFERENT sort of way. I wanted a somewhat more relaxed culture where people weren't as intense as my pressure cooker of a high school, and Bates DOES provide that - so I read it more as, won't fit in with the easygoing, take it as it comes vibe that we have in the campus.</p>
<p>Also, as far as I know, we're not need blind. Pretty bad if we say that we are. We also have a fairly small endowment, which pulls us down in USNWR so I assume the admissions office is constantly trying to make up for that. Also not admirable, but I'm sure every college has or does things they're not proud of.</p>
<p>Also in terms of grade inflation v. deflation, As are not easy, nor are they difficult. Depending, of course, on the class and the prof, if you do the work, you'll get a B. If you go above and beyond on the work, you'll get an A. We don't get A+s here on transcript - and I know lots of students who struggle to make Bs, while others make As easily. I wouldn't say we're grade inflated or deflated - you get what you earn, professors aren't going around with a certain number of As they'll hand out and after that you're screwed, but nor are they slapping a "Hey you tried - A+" on any papers either.</p>
<p>Yeah, we're not all perfect. We're by no means stupid, but we're not the kids that lettered in 3 varsity sports in HS while simultaneously winning the Ayn Rand Essay Contest and AMC. We're a little bit quirky, we may have screwed up before, but overall, we were good, solid students in high school. People are by no means stupid, but we weren't those kids in high school that ran up to the teachers after class to argue about the one point we got off on our math tests. This is coming from a girl who got into higher ranked LACs like Bowdoin and Haverford, and chose Bates BECAUSE of its lower stress feel, its "less preppy" feel - everyone is talking about developmental admits, but Batesies aren't in your face about their money, nobody is making judgment calls on any socioeconomic background. I chose it because it's slightly different, offers a different feel than schools like Amherst (which felt unbelievably preppy, and uncomfortable for a student who doesn't have a tru****nd).</p>
<p>Don't worry, bethie, as I have related the story many times - my D took one look at williams and ran screaming the other way - but she's a junior at dartmouth??? They are kids, not always logical.</p>