Who Gets What: Billions to colleges and students

Parent Cafe
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<p>Yes, Rutgers does have merit money including full rides, but the average kid is not going to get that. Particularly a transfer student from a community college. </p>

<p>I think she will end up at SUNY Purchase which is closer to Westchester Community College so they can continue to share cars. The CUNYs do not have much in housing at all, and getting anything off campus in this area involves prohibitive costs. She has not gotten a package yet, but all indicators say that there is nothing for her as she is a transfer and not a stellar student, with a B average from community college. If she lived on campus, her COA would exceed her EFC which would make her eligible for some subsidized loans, but the state schools that she has targeted do not guarantee financial aid, do not tend to be generous with financial aid, and are even harder on transfers. It does not look good. Not much work study available either.</p>

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<p>I agree. I don’t think that prisoners should be able to work out and watch either. it’s just not fair to the taxpayers.</p>

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^^^northeast mom</p>

<p>I believe cpt said she was the hair salon <em>owner</em>…there may be a good reason why her kids aren’t eligible for a pell grant…I get similar poor me stories when I go to get my haircut…since I dont ever get my hair cut by the same person, I’ve now figured it may well be about getting a better tip in a rough economy. Which also makes me wonder about additional cash income she may be earning, above what the gov’t is aware of.</p>

<p>Full disclosure: we have 2 kids, 2 cars, a house and qualify for the full pell grant, and husband’s a teacher - no tips.</p>

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<p>I’d just like to respond to the claim that public school students have luxuries like LCD TVs and so on by saying that I am writing this on my California Community College’s computer lab on an old 19" CRT monitor. My college also has just instituted a two-year freeze on buying any new equipment. In addition, they had to cancel the very popular winter intersession less than a month before it was supposed to start when the governor instituted a mid-year budget cut. They have now also cut classes during Summer 2009 and cancelled the entire Winter 2010 intersession as well. That is several hundred courses cut and we were (supposedly) one of the community colleges that was in a good position to weather the downturn.</p>

<p>We do have some new building, but it is all paid for by bonds from the local community (not the state, this college is lucky enough to be in a rich area) that were approved BEFORE the current downturn. We haven’t gotten anything from the state in 2008 and 2009 besides budget cuts (sometimes last-minute “emergency” cuts). The UCs and Cal States are also talking about enrollment cuts, fee increases and faculty trimming.</p>

<p>I think California Higher Ed is great, but we have problems, too, and NOBODY here is sitting around watching LCD TVs on the taxpayer’s dime.</p>

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<p>There is a good reason why her kids are not eligible for Pell. Whatever she reports as income and assets puts her over the Pell limits. She is definitely middle class. I know where she lives, and the apartment is small and nothing luxurious at all. They do not lead a luxurious life from anything I can see, and both kids work part time. I would have a difficult time telling her where to cut out the expenses. She bags her lunch, her clothes are nothing special, is frugal. Her EFC is not that high, just too high to get the Pell or other low income grants. Having the business may be what is putting her over, but it is a small hair salon with just 2 other stylists, and an assistant who does the miscellaneous work. </p>

<p>I don’t get “poor me” stories from her. She is concerned about college cost as her daughter is transitioning from community college to a 4 year school which is going to increase costs greatly. She has been hearing about these billions of dollars that are going toward college education and is wondering if she is going to get any relief. I don’t think so; not any more than I am. That she is not eligible for a Pell grant is a good thing, as it means she has more financial resources than those who are, but college years for her two kids have brought in a lot of additional costs. Her kids are going the cheapest possible route and it is still tough. Someone who is Pell eligible may not even be able to swing college here, as a car, not considered a covered expense is needed to go to the least expensive option here, which is community college. </p>

<p>Though our state has reasonably priced tuitions for state schools, it still is very difficult for many to pay for college even with an income that is considered sufficient to do so.</p>

<p>This big hullabaloo about putting billions towards college is not going to help too many here in my area. NY state college tuition has just gone up to eat up the extra PELL money, something I suspect will be happening at other state schools as well. I don’t see the relief for the student and family from these billions.</p>

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<p>The Senate’s stimulus cuts are penny wise and pound foolish. Cutting college building renovation and facilities is contrary to the exact sort of stimulus the economy needs. It’s quite simple:</p>

<p>College hires an architectural and engineering firm. That firm hires unemployed architects and engineers. They put out the plans, a construction firm is hired. Unemployed construction workers are hired. As construction begins, the local building materials company gets orders for steel, sheetrock, nails, and so on. Building materials factories get orders to replace inventory that is sold. The architects, engineers, and construction workers spend money for clothes, food and restuarants, keeping local small businesses afloat. Local governments benefit as unemployment and welfare rolls shrink. And so the ripple effect of economic recovery goes on…</p>

<p>And who benefits from this? Taxpayers do, as money that flowed out of their pockets flows right back in from employment, profits, rising stock prices, and so on. Construction of all types, including higher education facilities, is one of the best types of stimulus government can provide to an ailing economy.</p>

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<p>NY is the missing factor I wasn’t aware of. We bought our first house on Miami Beach in 1989 for $104,500, which we were able to do FHA in the same income range we are now. In NY, renting would have been a given, and renting a 2 BR apt would have been a given too, and still would have been 20 years later; altho teachers start $20K higher there, we’d still be playing catch-up. NY should be its own country with its own currency!</p>

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<p>Perhaps the good folks in New Jersey could vote to drop the merit program and spread the wealth around a little more? But, again, a personal state choice.</p>

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<p>MattsMom, fortunately most of NY state does not have NYC level housing prices! You can still find nice 3 BR houses in good communities for $100K if you’re upstate - they just won’t be brand new!</p>

<p>Even with the tuition increase, SUNY’s are still the lowest cost public uni’s in the northeast - at instate or OOS rates. Also, the TAP program offers generous aid (up to $5,000) to resident lower income kids (though that number may be on the budget chopping block as well). And the gov has proposed a new student loan program (NYHELPS) as well. I know that 14% seems like a big increase in one year, but inflation alone since the last increase in 2003 would surely account for most/all of that. So, whatever Pell increases occured in the interim really did help the SUNY students defray other costs.</p>

<p>I do feel for people with multiple kids in college and no savings. In the case of the small business owner. it might be time to tell the kids that they aren’t going to graduate debt free! It’s wonderful she’s been able to get them through their first two years.</p>

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<p>Mattsmom, with the Brightfutures (?) program and inexpensive instate tuition, Florida has done well in many ways for its college bound families. My guess, however, is that you have kids who are likely to get into colleges that meet full need, and also have that free tuition available. </p>

<p>My parents lived in the South Dade part of Florida some years ago, and getting a college education there is still difficult if a family has kids who want to go to college, can be successful in college but do not have the high school grades and stats to get any scholarship money. Even community colleges can be out of range if there is no transportation available to them. Where my parents lived, the public transportation was non existant. So to go to a local school even with the PELL picking up the tuition tab, a car becomes a necessary expense. Throw in a part time job and you gotta have a car. A dependable car, insurance, upkeep, unexpected repairs and events, parking, gasoline is a big expense. My son learned that the hard way. Throw in a few mistakes that cost money in terms of fines and tickets and it easily becomes unaffordable. When you throw that car into the equation, even community colleges become expensive and they are the catch all phrase we so easily use for those who cannot afford the other options. As Northeastmom pointed out, the room and board might be cheaper than the cost of another car.</p>

<p>What bothers me is that it is beginning to look like that college money is going to go into the college’s pockets, not the students’. If the Pell is increase, say $500 for the neediest student and the cheapest college option (state community colleges) increases their tution by that much or more, who is getting that money? Here in NY, the new of the SUNY increases came has come out just as this stimulus package is getting ratified. And it is going to eat up any money that comes out of that bill. Not only that, those who do not qualify for the PELL are going to be paying more!</p>

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<p>cptofthehouse exactly. Pell is offering a big $41.67/mos. more, and the government has bells and whistles going off about this “windfall” for our poorest families with college students. An OOS kid is being asked to cough up an extra $225/mos. (this is a car payment in my book) for a SUNY and it nobody bats an eyelash about that. So on the one hand $41/mos. is a big deal, and other hand $225/mos. is a normal annual increase. What a joke!</p>

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<p>I guess what is really bothering me is that I am reading here on CC and in other places how big help is on its way for college costs. I don’t think I am going to be helped at all. The tuition is pretty sure to go up next year, and our income down. Nothing happening to alleviate that pain on the federal end. But that I can understand as we are considered a high income family and are expected to roll with these punches.</p>

<p>When I talk to someone with an EFC of about $12K with two kids in community college who is living very modestly, and that family isn’t going to get any relief, it gets me wondering. Then when I look at how the neediest are going to benefit here, I don’t see them getting it any easier either when the costs are going up over and beyond what the government is giving in aid. It all goes into the colleges’ coffers; it does not help the families or students. Now if they put a stop on increases for those who getting PELL money, that would be a different story. That $500 or so, maximum increase would truly be going to the student or family. Again, the money is bypassing those for whom it is touted to benefit.</p>

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<p>I paid my ridiculous percentage in taxes as a middle class taxpayer. I DID pay my mortgage payments, unlike those who couldn’t. I am not in credit card debt. I do pay double taxes as I own a business. Like everyone else who has a business…I spend every day wondering if it will be my last. And I paid RIDICULOUS amounts of estimated taxes last year for this. Yet I still had to write ANOTHER check for more taxes as I had to take some money from the company to stay afloat. With little money left in the company now, I STILL have to pay more RIDICULOUS amounts of estimated taxes this year…AND my payroll withholding…AND I cut my salary and increased my withholding. </p>

<p>Yet…here I am…getting no stimulus check. But PAYING alternative minimum taxes! Trying to find a way to get a “good” education for a child who has a 2210 SAT and a 4.33 GPA. But I can’t afford it.</p>

<p>So now I find my taxes, in addition to being used to pay out stimulus checks to others…are now being used to “stimulate” college educations for those who are already going for free/reduced. And yet I don’t have the money to send my child to anything but a public in state school.</p>

<p>I’m above average intelligence. I used to be a bookeeper so I know the tiniest bit about budgets. I don’t live beyond my means.</p>

<p>But every day I find my taxes are used to bail someone ADDITIONAL out. </p>

<p>I’m getting pretty sick of it actually.</p>

<p>Lower middle class is a lousy place to be these days. Just venting. At no one. Just saying that the grass is not always greener. I’ve worked 3 jobs at a time and 80-90 hours a week to get to where I can make a living.</p>

<p>Yet I still can’t send my child to an Ivy (or NYU…her dream school). That’s OK. I’m fine with not getting what I can’t afford (remember…I said I did get a mortgage that I could afford to pay). What I’m not OK with is that my taxes keep increasing and it’s all going toward someone else having a better life than the child I worked so hard to raise. I risked everything for my business. Our lives, our future. To give her the best I could. I pay more taxes in dollar amount, AND a higher percentage. But it’s just never enough. You work harder…you are just expected to “even out” the lifestyle. You know “spread the wealth”. I don’t consider it “spreading” when I’m putting someone else through college when I can’t offer the same to my child. I’m just really sad. It’s a sad day and going to get worse with the new administration. Not beaten. But awfully sad.</p>

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<p>You may get a break from the AMT. There is some provision in the stimulus package for that.<br>
As I said earlier, I did not expect to get anything directly from this package. Obama made it very clear that the aid was not going to go to the higher incomes. What floors me is many of those making the highest salaries got even MORE from the bailout money. If those banks were not bailed out, would those executives have gotten their bonuses? After hearing all the ballyhoo about how people are going to benefit, when I look carefully at the results, I don’t see even low income folks, folks who are truly in trouble getting the money. It’s going right back into the institutions!</p>

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<p>What you are witnessing capt, is a classic case of the golden rule:</p>

<p>“Ye with all the Gold makes ALL the rules.” And the same is true in Congress.</p>

<p>We (as a Nation) elected these people, including Obama-rama. (my little ditty about Obama and Rahm Emmanuel). Now we have to live with it.</p>

<p>We didnt elect anyone on Wallstreet through the Gordon Gekko years, but we elected the people who put them in charge and put Alan Greenspan in charge etc.</p>

<p>Capitalism can be very cruel, but it can also be highly manipulated to accentuate that cruelty and it is now.</p>

<p>If you think enough about it, it can get any person who is not a minority and is middle class very upset, because there are many injustices that occur DAILY with respect to scholarships and financial aid, all in the name of being more righteous, politically correct or to affectuate social policies that sound good on paper, but are a mess in execution.</p>

<p>Ditto for athletic scholarships. So I just try and not think about it. </p>

<p>My choice? I could send my D to a pretty darned good state school for very cheap. We deliberately chose NOT to do that, so we take what we can get along the way and hope our “investment” in her future works out well and pays dividends.</p>

<p>Frankly, I am so pessimistic about our national economy right now, I am almost of the mindset to just say, “to heck with it”, and not worry about it and just let the chips fall where they may. </p>

<p>I dont think people have quite grasped…the average Joe if you will, how serious this economic and financial problem is. Wallstreet has imploded. The government is bailing them out for better or worse. But the underlying REAL economy (not the FAUX economy of Gordon Gekko) is also flattened. SOME businesses will survive…for as long as they can pay the payroll. But many will just close. And when the music stops, people will count up their monopoly money and we all know what happens then. Its not pretty.</p>

<p>I hate to be so pessimistic. But its reality. 600 trillion in worthless derivatives. Nobody…not the G20 has that kind of money. </p>

<p>There are 19 MILLION vacant homes for sale. That is builder inventory and foreclosed homes and people who have moved on without selling. That does NOT include the number of homes that are occupied and for sale. Then there are the overbuilt apartment complexes. Its daunting. That inventory MUST be worked off before prices can stabilize and begin rising again.</p>

<p>Do the math.</p>

<p>Meanwhile NAFTA, just like Ross Perot stated, sucked ALL of our manufacturing jobs overseas. We embraced the mother of all entitlement programs: globalization. Once you start down that path, you cant stop it. EVER. Because to do so causes a trade war and rising tariffs and that causes collapse. So we are stuck with globalization, which we all know means: we import 99% and export 1%. </p>

<p>We came out of the Great Depression during World War II. We did so because we were self sufficient for energy (petroleum) and manufacturing. We bought ourselves what we made here and sold here. Now its different. We are in the rubric of globalization and “the internet”. None of that is good.</p>

<p>I dont have a solution. I am sorry…I wish I did.</p>

<p>We also let in 25 million illegal aliens. While they fill up low wage jobs most of us dont want, they also require social services and medical services which have bankrupted the State of California, which is now in a state of extreme crisis and likely to get much worse.</p>

<p>I see a massive flight OUT of California of capital and people…a reverse of the Okies who went there looking for opportunities in the 30’s. I really do.</p>

<p>And in the end, I fear for our government and way of life, as the reality of what happened and who dunnit really sinks in.</p>

<p>Strap in.</p>

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<p>I would like to see a bunch of folks who are going to directly benefit from any of this stimulus money.</p>

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<p>that is the BIG fraud perpetrated by the ruling class, i.e., we can help YOU with other people’s money. But the simple fact is that there are not enough “other people” to give everyone else help. Moreover, since the lower class already does not pay taxes, the big bulge of tax payers is the middle class, and spreading their wealth around is just spreading their wealth around (after deducting 10% for overhead). There ain’t enough “rich” folks to tax to give everyone else relief. It’s AP Stat 101.</p>

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cpt^^^</p>

<p>I have one child who can and has. He’ll be goiing to Pomona on a QB scholarship.</p>

<p>I have a second child with mental (severe ADD) and physical disabilities that caused her to miss a lot of school. Since pain is the major feature of her condition (Ehlers Danlos Syndrome), keeping her comfortable and able to deal with the pain with a minimum of narcotic use became a priority for her childhood. </p>

<p>Her education has months-long gaps in it. Despite a gifted IQ, her PSATs were a 117. Wth adderal, they went to a 149. We’re hoping with aggressive coaching for her SAT we can get her to the 1800 level, which is the minimal amount required at RIT for a merit scholarship. They offer minimal need based financial aid, and is the only college in the country that offers a 4 year degree in biomedical photography.</p>

<p>By the time she begins college, she will have had 8 classes in formal photography training, an internship at a photog center in Palm Beach, and will have done her “10,000 hours” (Gladwell Outliers reference) in photography. She earned her first gold key at Scholastics in her sophomore year and has published, galleried and sold her work. </p>

<p>The reason she wants to go to the biomedical route is apparent to me for many reasons - her medical history, her talent in using photoshop from the age of 7 in order refine her photography (her digital darkroom) as a pain distractor, and the financial security it has the potential to provide her as an artist. She even said that rather than a car, if she had the choice, she’d prefer an electron microscope.</p>

<p>Without tremendous financial aid from RIT, we can only afford to send her to a Florida State school (she may or may not qualify for Bright Futures when all is said and done, so CC is an outside possibility). University of North Florida is the only Florida State school that offers a 4 year degree in photography. Unfortunately, there is nothing new here for her to learn, or any tangible path that will bring her closer to being a biomedical photographer. </p>

<p>Even if we were to accept the idea of loans (we don’t), I doubt we’d be eligible, because despite our 830 credit rating, we simply do not have sufficient income. </p>

<p>So anyway, just a rant. We are low income because of a physical disabilty (I had to be a stay-at-home Mom), a physical disability contributed to her great talent, and she may be unable to realize this talent because we are low income.</p>

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<p>I so feel your pain - my kid was admitted to Ivy / Ivy-caliber schools, and I discovered to my dismay that I was simply “too rich” to afford these schools. On a single income, did all the “right” things, lived frugally, saved, scrimped, bought a cheap house and paid it off, rather than moving to something actually nice, same with my car. And I managed to save enough to pay maybe $15K a year, hoping for some help with the rest of it. But no help forthcoming, just loans - >$100K in debt for 1 undergrad? Uhh, no, not me. </p>

<p>I discovered being responsible is held against you - if you’ve actually managed to save some money, even if <em>you</em> thought you were saving for emergencies, or a downpayment on a home, well, sorry about that - you are clearly “rich”. If you live in a high-cost area like NYC, Washington DC, or San Francisco, a $100K income is barely middle class - but the financial aid system says “rich”, pay your own way. </p>

<p>Here’s the thing - in many ways, I’m fortunate - I’m employed, and paid off my little house, so I can pay for school, (state, not those 40K / year Ivy’s), my taxes, my terribly expensive health insurance, food, etc. (having paid off your house isn’t all its cracked up to be – the tax exposure leaves me gutted every year - I’m thinking of buying a house I can’t afford to get the tax break and bail-out when I can’t pay for it anymore.) So, fine, I get it, I’ve got a roof over my head, and the MS-13 gangsters in the neighborhood have figured out I don’t have anything worth stealing - life’s great.</p>

<p>But I can’t stand it when people try to convince us that people like you and me are going to benefit from this bill. Because on-balance, we won’t. Whatever benefits accrue to us in the middle-class will be far out-weighed by the costs we’ll pay. More benefits from the government like the Section 8 Crackhouses they placed in our neighborhoods because they thought that single mothers with crack-dealing boyfriends needed a nicer place to stay than the inner-city, often importing them from other states - “benefits” like that, that tore apart my neighborhood with violence, prostitution, and drug wars, I can do without, thanks. </p>

<p>Maybe I’m supposed to feel better knowing that my exorbitant taxes, federal, state, property, etc goes to worthy things like the children in my neighborhood that are almost all on Medicaid, TANF, and other government programs, and most attend ESL classes. Funny how these children of immigrants have better medical coverage than the $12K a year I pay for mine - after paying for insurance, I still have to pay several hundred a month in prescription co-pays for my disabled wife - Medicaid co-pays are $1, at most. Or to know that we’ll be bailing out irresponsible people who bought a house and matching BMW’s they couldn’t afford - yes, definitely want to ensure they don’t get thrown out of their 8,000 SF McMansion they put no money down on - we should definitely help <em>them</em> out, don’t want them losing “their” home - how putting no money down, not paying their mortgage, and owing more than its worth makes it “their” home is something I’ve never figured out. </p>

<p>This bill isn’t about “investment” – government procurement cycles take far too long for their spending to even begin to affect the current economic conditions – this bill is part political patronage, some over-priced jobs, some tax relief, and a whole lot of income redistribution. And, of course, as it true with most government programs, a good half of the entitlement dollars will be gobbled up by waste, fraud, and abuse. </p>

<p>Just remember - “There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch” - and so if you’re not on the receiving end, you’re on the donating end. I already know which end I’ll be on.</p>

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<p>Bingo! </p>

<p>Not only true for this bill, but EVERY spending bill that Congress passes. There are not enough “other people” to pay into the system so people like you and me can benefit.</p>