<p>Does anyone know who is behind the big STEM education push? As the veterans on CC know, there are ,in most areas of science, a glut of qualified candidates for the number of science jobs available.</p>
<p>So who, specifically, is it that is behind the big STEM push? Is it the universities or professional science associations? Does anyone know? It seems like such a poorly thought out agenda. Why is STEM being so highly touted still?</p>
<p>STEM =/ science</p>
<p>It’s corporations. In terms of the technology and engineering aspect, there are plenty of students, but the companies just don’t want to have to pay them as much as they do.</p>
<p>So they push hard for STEM majors and saturate the market with engineers, and now you can freely fire an engineer and pay a new one less because there are so many from the STEM push.</p>
<p>It is mainly the corporations crying shortage. This partly because they want cheaper labor and justification for h1-b’s and another is because they think they should be able to post a job ad for a Chemist with 15 years specific experience formulating urethane resins while not providing internships or training. This over specialization, refusal to offer training, and rampant purple squirrelism when hiring is the only true shortage.</p>
<p>Academia also requres a constant flow of fresh suckers to work in their labs. They rely on grad student labor so each professor needs a constant stream of grad students so they replicate scientists at a rate the job market cannot support out of self interest.</p>
<p>Yep, a huge scam unless you plan on going to medical school. If not, I would stay clear from science.</p>
<p>The government also seems to be pushing STEM, saying it’s how we have to stay ahead in a globally competetive environment. And in general the job prospects seem to be decent for the “TEM” part of STEM, but less so for science. Most funding for major science research comes from the federal government, and the US is not keeping pace with other countries when it comes to science funding. So they’re talking the talk, not walking the walk.</p>
<p>Also, the only reason to go into science is for medical school? I’m sorry, but that’s ridiculous.</p>
<p>@Nano: Wow, LOL! You are sadly clueless. The only people who consider that being ridiculous are the ones like you who have NOT experienced working out there in the science field before and are not working in the real world. You will be surprised how many people who have Biology and Chemistry degrees regret their decision and not move forward. A degree in the science does indeed help prepare you for graduate school. A lot of my classmates wish they would have majored in the sciences, so they can familiarize themselves with the courses offered in medical school. It is an excellent stepping stone. Are you in graduate or medical school? Have you worked out there with a Biology or a Chem degree and found a decent job besides being a lab serf? Have you stayed at a job more than 5 years? If not, then you really have no say what is going on in the science job market, Nanotechnology.</p>
<p>I am not clueless. I know the job market is tough for science majors, and with an undergrad degree in the sciences most of the jobs you’ll be able to get are as lab techs.</p>
<p>But the purpose of studying science is not aimed solely at medical school. I started out college as pre-med and was doing some research on the side for application purposes. I discovered, though, that the actual science appealed to me more than the medical side of things. So now I am preparing for PhD applications. Even after that, I recgonize that the job market is… less than spectacular.</p>
<p>What I’m taking issue with is your claim that the only good reason to study science is to go to medical school.</p>
<p>The only good reason to get a science degree is med, pharm, dental, PT, PA or other healthcare professional school. There is no good reason for a science PhD anymore and anyone who tries to work in science in the USA will be in for a sad reality jolt when they are forced to work for a temp agency for $15 per hour no benefits. Heck the HS grad driving the forklift is making tons more money than the guy in the lab with an MS.</p>
<p>I really don’t get some of the poeple on here advising others to get science degrees. I don’t know if they are ignorant, in denial, part of the do what you love and the money will follow school [I think that is the worst advice ever], or actually out to mess up someones life for whatever reason. To myself that is the moral equivalent of guiding a blind person in front of an oncoming train.</p>
<p>@sschoe2 - You seem to spend an inordinate amount of time on various threads essentially saying that anyone who gets a degree in science without the goal of a medical degree is essentially an idiot. Did you get burned by a science job or something, or do you just live on a medical high horse that looks down on the researchers?</p>
<p>If you want to make use of intellectual/scientific talents and have a chance to actually produce knowledge, science is the way to go. Where do you think the technologies used by doctors came from?</p>
<p>There are engineering majors where you learn the same amount of science, but take engineering electives instead of free electives/humanities/social sciences, which will get you more opportunities for gainful employment than even a science PhD would get you.</p>
<p>The technologies used by doctors came from engineers not scientists.</p>
<p>I graduated with a masters of science in chemistry with extensive research with protein biochemistry, cell culture, chromatography, various biophysical techniques. After graduation I spent 8 months unemployed declining total crap temp agency jobs, then 9 months with a somewhat decent job, then got laid off, then spent 3 years without benefits at a crappy permatemp job making ~ $20 per hour with no benefits and I spent every waking moment hating the job and devoting every spare moment applying for or interviewing for just about any job anywhere that might pay decently and getting nowhere. I finally after close to 3 years I found a really good job with benefits and good pay but I live in fear of what is going to happen the next time I get laid off. I’ve pretty much vowed that I will leave science entirely rather than go back to crappy temp jobs. Most of the people I graduated with have already either left the field or went into teaching.</p>
<p>Almost everyone I know who got a science degree without going to professional school had their lives badly messed up especially the poeple that stayed on to get the PhD. I remember my bigest wakeup call was when a couple of students about to graduate where having such a heck of a time getting a job they were discussing whether they could get away with ommitting the PhD entirely. My solution was just don’t get it. Why bust your rear for 7 years to get a degree that yeilds worse employment prospects. You are setting yourself up for abuse and that is not a halmark of commitiment, that is a sign of low self-esteem.</p>
<p>@Nano, okay, I apologize for calling you clueless. What I should have said was, according to my experience and what I have seen, people find better career opportunities using a degree in the science as a stepping stone for graduate school. As compared to just majoring in biology and chemistry. Most people I have seen, worked as lab serfs and dealing with abuse, little pay, no vacation, no sick days, no life, etc. Can you get a job? Yes, but the opportunities are limiting due to a huge glut of biology and chem majors.</p>
<p>@JBoyLover27 - Without a PhD in the sciences, yes, options are extremely limited. Teaching is an option, though - I have numerous relatives who have taken that route. I do think there definitely are people who go into a science degree without realizing what the future will hold for that. I do think there is some misinformation out there. People should realize what they are getting into.</p>
<p>@sschoe2 - Your experience doesn’t go against anything I’ve claimed, I don’t think: getting a good job with the doctorate is rare and diffcult. I’m not denying that. But you also seem to be arguing that getting a PhD is simply a waste of time and essentially a completely futile endeavor. I don’t believe that is the case. You do put in a lot of time and effort, and there is no guarantee of employment at the end, but it’s definitely possible to have a successful career with a science PhD. It’s not for everyone, though. If you go through a PhD and feel like it’s abuse and completely unenjoyable, that’s not the route to take.</p>
<p>@notatest75 - “The technologies used by doctors came from engineers not scientists.”
Really? Some of them certainly do, but if you think that that’s the case, for all of it, you’re misguided. Vaccines, cancer treatments, robot-assisted surgery - if you look at the affiliations of professors who have published major papers in these fields, you will discover that most of them are scientists. And look at the Nobel Prize in Medicine - it mostly goes to scientists, not engineers.</p>
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<p>Actually, medical school does not require any specific undergraduate major. A pre-med can take the pre-med courses alongside any major.</p>
<p>However, the flood of pre-meds who feel that they have to major in biology to do pre-med but then fail to get into any medical school is probably a significant factor in flooding the job market with biology graduates and depressing pay levels and job prospects there.</p>
<p>But, as noted above, STEM majors have considerable variation in job prospects. <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/internships-careers-employment/1121619-university-graduate-career-surveys-5.html#post15975553[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/internships-careers-employment/1121619-university-graduate-career-surveys-5.html#post15975553</a> indicate that biology job prospects are generally poor all the time, while engineering and computer science job prospects are a lot better except when there is an industry downturn.</p>
<p>@ucbalumnus, right, but you are NOT required to take the RECOMMENDED classes, which are fully stressed in medical school. Three non-science majors in my class dropped out and wish they took the recommended classes, instead of just taking the required classes to get in. You are more well-rounded in the sciences with a science degree. Although, not required to major, but can help you greatly.</p>
<p>Oh, I forgot to paste an interesting article about STEM:</p>
<p>[College</a> STEM majors opting out for other degrees](<a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/19/stem-majors-opting-for-other-degrees/2828219/]College”>College STEM majors opting out for other degrees)</p>
<p>Re: #17</p>
<p>AAMC stats indicate that about half of applicants and matriculants to medical schools are non-biology majors, so the medical schools certainly believe that non-biology majors can succeed in medical school. Of course, a non-biology major who has taken the pre-med courses could take an upper division biology or biochemistry course as an elective if s/he so desires.</p>
<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/2012factstable18.pdf[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/2012factstable18.pdf</a></p>
<p>Well, half in my class and a lot of my friends who attend medical school are actually science majors. Also, the sources vary in numbers, I read one article that said about 30% are non-science majors. Your stats still did not indicate whether they passed or did very well on boards. No one said they cannot succeed. They usually, and I’ve seen it and heard it, have to work a little harder to catch up and struggle more than science majors. Once again, my friend just dropped out because she never took the recommended classes and was too much for her. She majored in Liberal Arts and General Studies. Same with my other two classmates. You are not taking Physics, Organic Chem, Calculus, etc (the required classes) in medical school. You are taking the recommended courses, Microbiology, Immunology, Histology, etc. The only classes that are chemistry you will ever take are Pharmacology and Biochem. But, believe whatever you want. Not all stats are what they appear to be and I wouldn’t believe everything you read if I were you. I am leaving this conversation.</p>