Who Turned Down HPME For an Ivy League?

<p>hydrogen3k:</p>

<p>I find it quite amusing that you're still posting about HPME, especially IN the HPME thread, when you clearly have some unexplainable personal agenda against it. I do respect conflicted's decision and think he/she will thrive in Princeton. I am not so blindly pro-HPME like you are completely against it. You rejected HPME two years ago and have no idea what it's all about, so stop pretending like you do.</p>

<p>I've tried to respect your posts for a long time, but if you're going to ridicule other posters, I'll say this once and won't reply to your posts anymore. Mind your own business.</p>

<p>Very well put, neom3x11. If people didn't want others to interfere their business, then why in the world would they even post on this stupid site. As a matter of fact, I've basically had it with this waste of time. I guess this will be one of my last posts.
Thanks for providing me with the initiative to stop posting.
I look forward to meeting you in person one day. Until then, take care.</p>

<p>If you happen to like NU better anyway, then by all means go there and be glad for the guarantee. But don't give up an excellent dream school for it.</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=298878%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=298878&lt;/a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=327166%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=327166&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Whoa! Wait a minute here. Hydrogen, you have been offering valuable insight on these threads for years--don't give up now. Neom, you don't have to answer Hydrogen's posts if you don't want to. These boards provide a place for discussion. Everyone has a right to their opinion, and if you don't agree, either state why, or ignore the post. I love viewing ongoing discussions at CC, because often viewpoints are presented that I hadn't thought of. Neom, bluedevil, hydrogen--I love seeing your experienced views. Please don't get fed up and leave the rest of us behind! Where would the CC boards be without you?</p>

<p>I couldn't agree with you more, Medschool4me.</p>

<p>BDM, BRM, and Hydrogen3k,
Please continue this dialogue. The newcomers to this site truly value your experience, insight and opinions.</p>

<p>who is BRM? i havent seen this person on this thread</p>

<p>he's big red med!</p>

<p>ah, I see your point conflicted. Apologies.</p>

<p>I meant to write "Go to princeton, especially since you would rather leap and possibly fall then be in HPME." sorry for the confusion. </p>

<p>I wasn't trying to be negative (fully), I think you have decided for yourself that you DO want to go to princeton more than HPME. It is your decision to make, not ours :). And I wish I could make a decision like that haha</p>

<p>I've had enough of CC too so I'm going to leave. I won't subject myself to any more posters believing that the Ivies are undeniably better than HPME, or that HPMEs are deluded and insecure. And then masking it as an "opposing viewpoint" so it seems okay. Trying to represent HPME in a good light while misinformed high school students are bashing it...well, I've got better things to do. After all, as an HPME, I've got plenty of time and countless opportunities to enjoy my undergrad years and grow as a person.</p>

<p>So my final statement is to those accepted and will be going to HPME this year: Congratulations and don't let other people make you believe that you'll regret it. If you work hard, you'll thrive at Northwestern. Keep achieving like you did in high school so you can make HPME a stronger program. Enjoy your undergraduate years but never forget your goals. Good luck!</p>

<p>Neom, PLEASE do not leave these boards. You are the "voice of HPME" and we need to hear what you have to say. I have been following your posts for years. </p>

<p>In my opinion, HPME is an AWESOME program, and anyone who turns it down is CRAZY! (Unless it is for financial reasons...) As ellen's post reminded us, the admissions statistics do not tell the whole story. So many qualified students drop out of the pre-med track before the time comes to apply that the acceptance numbers appear to be better than they really are. I agree with the doctor cited in ellen's post that this is as close to a guarantee as you will ever get in life. Why someone would want to pass that up is beyond me.</p>

<p>Northwestern is a GREAT school which is under the radar of many high school students. These boards help to educate the uniformed. There is so little information available about these programs. Having an experienced student tell it like it is cannot be replaced. </p>

<p>Neom, on behalf of all of the CC "Multiple Degree Program"-obsessed, I urge you to reconsider your decsion. It just would not be the same without you. We love you, man...</p>

<p>I disagreed very strongly with the physician ellen's post quoted. See:

[quote]
1.) I've recently obtained Duke's incoming freshmen numbers, approximately. As it turns out, we have more students applying to medical school each year than actually enter as premeds. So we actually have negative attrition, and our 85% turns out to be a pretty good estimate.</p>

<p>I should have realized this, being a negatively attrited student myself.</p>

<p>2.) "In the end no matter where you go for med school, the best residencies go to the best students in each class, and that can be done at BU, and GWU as easily as Wash U."</p>

<p>This is, of course, a gross oversimplification of the truth, but it is truthful. Obviously the top students at any school will get the medical schools/residencies they desire. As BRM is fond of saying -- and I am fond of quoting -- "Excelling is a panacea." This is fine if you're an excellent student, in the top few handful in your class. But mediocre students -- such as myself -- can often be substantially helped by the resources made available by top-flight programs.</p>

<p>For example, UC Berkeley -- a high-caliber institution -- sends about 13 students to top-ten medical schools each year in a class of 10,000. Duke sends 45 with a student body of 1600. If you're going to be in the top 0.1% of your school, then you can go wherever you like and it's not a problem. But what if you're not that kind of student? What if you're only a top-2% student? Marginal students can be very helped by the advising and curriculum that private schools like Duke can provide.</p>

<p>For the record, by the way, I wasn't even in Duke's top 12% -- or my high school's top 50% -- and I certainly have no complaints.</p>

<p>3.) "the last thing I look at when I scan a candidates CV is the college and medical school from which they came."</p>

<p>This is obviously true, and it continues to prove BRM's point about excelling wherever you go being the most important component. But there is a certain degree of chain-reaction inertia. Can this be overcome by an excellent student? Of course. But, again, what about middling students? It's true that the valedictorian of the University of Texas at Houston will probably do just as well as the valedictorian of UC San Francisco, but the kids in the middle of those two classes will have very different outcomes.</p>

<p>4.) "When my D told me about the premed students taking sleeping bags to the library"</p>

<p>I certainly never saw this happen at Duke. I won't speak for other schools, but I suspect NCG and PSAS will be here shortly to tell you that they didn't see it at Cornell or Penn either. My father certainly never saw it at MIT.</p>

<p>I don't know what kind of school this physician's daughter goes to. Certainly I don't know anybody who slept at the library. Duke's library isn't even open past 2 AM.</p>

<p>6.) "I think you are all better served to just to buy a lottery ticket and pray." </p>

<p>The process may seem very random to outsiders, but -- trust me -- it's not. Or, at least, there are ways to minimize the problems associated with that randomness, which is why the advising you'll find at Yale is crucial to the application process. (I'm sure NU's advising is fine, too.) It is nothing like a lottery, and in fact the underlying system makes a great deal of sense once you accomodate some variation in outcomes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>These horror stories are not representative of the premedical process at Ivy League schools and should not be taken seriously.</p>

<p>And MS4M, I understand that you were not saying this maliciously, but words like "crazy" should be used judiciously and in context. Students are making the best choices they can, and making the decision they feel to be best for themselves does not deserve to be insulted.</p>

<p>Mike: If you were not in your high school's top 50% how did you get into Duke? You must have had a fantastic assist to turnover ratio. Or did you go to Exeter and get a 1600?</p>

<p>Basically the latter. I went to one of the stronger high schools in CA*. I missed 40 points combined on my SAT I's and the three II's I submitted.</p>

<p>*Hey, everything's relative. Not my fault we would have been bottom feeders in NJ.</p>

<p>I apologize for using the word "crazy" for people who pass up the opportunity to enroll in HPME. Of course, I wish the best of luck to everyone in the position of having to make a difficult decision, and I hope you realize how incredibly lucky you are to have these choices! Please report back to this board next year, and weigh in with your observations. Let's keep this thread going long and strong!</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Probably because most people will never have the privilege to be choosing between HPME and Princeton, and it's a nice way of saying "I'm jealous!". But really, if Conflicted would rather go to Princeton, he might as well open up a spot for someone else who is desperate for HPME. After all, both can lead to an MD and a promising career in medicine, whichever route you prefer.</p>

<p>dunno if this thread is still active, but I personally turned down top ivies (including princeton) for HPME and have not regretted it. The truth is, although princeton is undoubtedly a better school, northwestern is not that far behind. The academics, student body, opportunities, etc. are top notch. And as an HPME, you at not locked into rigid pre-med track; on the contrary, you have considerably more freedom than a regular premed. I have many friends who are regular premeds and i feel that I have so much more options/freedom than them. HPMEs are required to take the pre med classes (chemistry, biology, physics, and math (although most hpmes have the option of never taking math again with a 5 on the Calc BC exam). But aside from that, we can do ANYTHING we want. If you feel that you love literature, then be an english major. If you are passionate about politics/policy and want to be the next secretary of health or director of WHO, then major in economics/political science/international relations. Northwestern's academic depts are strong enough so that you can emerge as a leader in any field. Because you don't have to pad your resume for med school, you are free to spend your summers anyway you like. Many students are interested in research--undergraduate research will help you get into Northwestern's MD/PHD program, which gives preference to HPME applicants</p>

<p>The most important point I want to leave is that HPME does not simply give you an undergraduate experience with less stress-- it puts you ahead of the game in a fulfilling medical career. For example, while normal premeds are hauling ass to have an opportunity for a MD degree, you could be preparing yourself for a MD/PhD, MD/MBA, MD/JD.... (if you are interested in having multiple degrees). You could be exploring different interests and passions that you did not know you had before. It's true that Northwestern is not as good as Princeton, Yale, or Harvard. But you have to think about it this way -- do you want a good but stressful/limited undergraduate experience at Princeton, or an amazing/flexible undergraduate experience at Northwestern, which is only a little bit behind?</p>

<p>1.) Northwestern is a good undergraduate school. No argument here.</p>

<p>2.) HPME relieves stress. No argument here either.</p>

<p>3.) The rest is what I have problems with.
[quote]
major in economics/political science/international relations

[/quote]
You do realize that plenty of normal premeds do major in these things, right?</p>

<p>
[quote]
you are free to spend your summers anyway you like. Many students are interested in research

[/quote]

Okay, true, but... normal premeds are supposed to spend their summers doing research. So if a student wants to do research, then that advantage doesn't mean much.</p>

<p>
[quote]
you could be preparing yourself for a MD/PhD, MD/MBA, MD/JD

[/quote]
Which, again, plenty of normal premeds do.</p>

<p>While I can imagine that HPME relieves some stress, I'm not buying the "freedom to explore other things" argument. Plenty of normal premeds major in economics and plan on going off to get a second degree as well. If anything, that nullifies much of the advantage that you'd get from HPME, since prelaw or preMBA students need good grades.</p>

<p>Besides -- that's only if you're 100% set on Feinberg for medical school. I'm betting some of the HPME's are going to want to apply elsewhere, in which case the normal premed track sets in again.</p>

<p>BDM--</p>

<p>I know that premeds do have the option of majoring in anything they want. But it is also true that being in HPME makes it easier to do so. We are not pressured to spend our summers doing research for med school admission -- in fact, I know an HPME who worked at an investment bank specializing in healthcare over the summer. And if we do choose to do research, we do not have to worry about strategizing it in a way so that it would look good to med schools. And I wouldn't say "plenty of normal premeds" plan on going off to get a second degree...the simple fact is that it is very hard just to get into medical school alone. Granted, there will be very smart and talented students who are able to be a premed AND do other things but i would say most premeds are too busy making sure their grades and ECs are sufficient for med school admission. Having a guarantee into med school just makes it much easier to pursue a second goal since you have your first one already fulfilled. </p>

<p>Everyone has a certain threshold in what they can do -- all I'm saying is that being in HPME will allow you to allocate that threshold with more freedom. So I stand strongly by my argument that HPME not only relieves stress, but gives you freedom to explore other things. This what I feel personally, at least, as a student currently in HPME.</p>

<p>I posted this somewhere else:</p>

<p>Time to weigh in after reading from the sidelines. I am a first year HPME student and I cannot even begin to describe what a blessing HPME has been.</p>

<p>In high school I was that kid who signed up for (and eventually became in charge of) every activity, had a perfect GPA, etc. I was pretty anal and would be upset at anything less than superb. Then I came to NU through the HPME, and suddenly the external pressure was lifted. Now my motivation is completely internal. For the first time in my life, I'm doing activities because I know that I enjoy them, not to pad my resume. I volunteer a bunch because I genuinely want to help. I go in to my professor's office hours to get more insight into a subject or just have an interesting conversation- I know I don't have any ulterior motives because I won't need a recommendation. It feels amazing.</p>

<p>So many people run around me constantly looking stressed and frazzled. I'm the exact opposite. I have never before felt so calm and relaxed.</p>

<p>HPME gives you plenty of room for electives, so I'm taking courses far outside of my comfort zone. So many premeds look for the easiest A classes to complement their science courses, while I'm tackling anything that seems interesting, not worrying about the grade consequences. Which is lucky, because NU is not easy by any means. Besides my 4.0 high school GPA (at a competitive high school too!), I'm not getting all A's in my science courses. And because of the HPME, I don't need to. My mind has been stretched in ways I couldn't have imagined. If a class I'm taking is especially interesting, I'll go to the library and check out more books on the topic. I never would have done that in high school, and I certainly wouldn't have time to do that if I was stressed about having perfect grades.</p>

<p>And Northwestern is awesome! Our campus is so pretty and the student body is incredibly driven and motivated. I know most HPME kids turned down top ivies, and to be honest, they don't seem any different from the majority of the NU population. I can't imagine that yale's student body is so incredibly different from Northwestern's. Have you visited NU? It really is a fantastic school. IMO it has the perfect size student body, great location (Evanston is nice and Chicago is...well... Chicago), interesting courses, accessible and talented faculty, lake michigan, quarter system, and the list goes on.</p>

<p>I really am having such a great undergraduate experience. And in 3 years I'll be at Feinberg, a top notch medical school with my MD by 25. It's hard to imagine anything much better than this.</p>

<p>But of course you have to follow your heart- do what feels best. HPME obviously was the right choice for me, but that doesn't mean that it is for you. I picked HPME and have not looked back once.</p>

<p>
[quote]
investment bank specializing in healthcare over the summer

[/quote]
I have a ton of friends who do work in healthcare consulting firms as non-HPME premeds. As many as work at the NIH? No, but a sizeable group.</p>

<p>I'll concede coursework freedom.</p>

<p>I do not concede the dual degree argument. In fact, I think a dual degree basically nullifies the advantages a HPME gives you.</p>

<p>Think about it: a normal premed needs high grades and premed courses. A normal prelaw needs high grades. If you're going MD/JD on a normal route, you need high grades and premed courses. An HPME removes the high grades component from being a premed, but it doesn't remove them from being a prelaw -- so you still need high grades and premed courses.</p>

<p>Business school needs high grades and good interviewing skills. MSTP programs require high grades, killer research, and a brilliant MCAT score. Etc. In other words, the admissions requirements imposed by this second degree basically remove the freedom that you're exulting in as an HPME.</p>