Who's turning down Harvard?

<p>I spoke last night with a college counselor at a high-powered high school. This high school sends multiple students each year to HYPS. (It’s not a math-science magnet school.) She had a few interesting observations:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>She and the other college counselors whom she’s talked to this week don’t find it surprising that Harvard scheduled Yardfest and the prefrosh weekend to overlap. These two events had not overlapped in recent years (she didn’t know about long ago). The consensus among these counselors? They view it as a conscious decision – she said that Harvard and its Admissions Head Bill Fitzsimmons are, as we all know, definitely “not stupid” and that this was undoubtedly a response to a problem that Harvard has been grappling with – the view that it’s a colder/more competitive place to be an undergraduate than those other schools, a school more focused on its graduate students and professional schools. </p></li>
<li><p>She said that – for years – she has cautioned all her students when they go on visits to ask whether this is a “standard” weekend at that school – because that’s what you need to see. (I think that I remember one poster suggesting that it’s better to visit schools on some weekend other than the prefrosh weekend).</p></li>
<li><p>She said that – when students are unhappy at different schools – you’ll find that their complaints tend to cluster. For instance, when current Princeton students aren’t happy at Princeton they talk about the social scene there with the eating clubs (she said they rarely complain about Princeton’s academics or the interaction with faculty). When current Harvard students aren’t happy, their complaints are about two things: the relative infrequency of close informal contact between faculty and students (not the office hours type of contact, but the give and take off-hours type) and the coldness/competitiveness. She said when current Yale students complain about Yale (something she said that she’s encountered less for Y than with H or P), they complain about its intellectual intensity (but she says they don’t call it competitive). She said that in her experience Harvard students are more externally motivated, (meaning, she said, that they are somewhat more inclined to look at where they are relative to their fellow students), and Yale students are more internally motivated. </p></li>
<li><p>She did stress to me that there are plenty of happy students at all of these schools, and that there’s no one right school for everyone. Some students really thrive at Harvard. Some thrive at each of these schools. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>This is not a post to elicit stories of happiness or fit at Harvard or elsewhere. We were talking in general terms about atmosphere at the various schools and about a challenge Harvard faces (even Harvard can face challenges – all these schools are constantly re-calibrating. that’s what keeps them as good as they are!). I’m sure that there are many students who find Harvard a perfect fit.</p>

<p>Some posters may well say – “hey, H doesn’t need to worry about yield; it has a higher acceptance rate than any other school.” But as she pointed out, overall yield is different than yield within certain demographics. Some cultural groups don’t view “happiness” or “fit” as part of the college choice equation. Tiger Mother would certainly agree with that. Other cultural groups would view “fit” or “happiness” or even “social scene” as an integral part of the calculus. This college counselor said that H is well aware of the different things that draw students to a school (and, as a corollary, what drives them away) and it’s also well aware of the different weight accorded these factors by different cultural groups. H doesn’t need to worry about whether the Tiger Mom group will come – they’ll be there regardless of the social scene. But H realizes that it does lose a greater number of certain types of kids; Fitzsimmons’ remarks at visitas could be seen as consistent with that observation. The college counselor said that you want to have a diverse group saying “yes,” not just a diverse group that you admit. And that, some counselors think, is what motivated the scheduling of Yardfest and Visitas on the same dates.</p>

<p>^Interesting. As a Yalie, the major complaint I and my classmates had was not the intellectualism–but the academic load (VERY different things–36 not 32 classes for graduation) and what an utter dump New Haven is. I was just there with my junior in HS D and while there are some minor changes at the edges of the campus, New Haven is still a dump–and a cultural wasteland–that last point has its upside in that the campus has to be everything because New Haven is nothing.</p>

<p>But having spent every year since I was 18 on either campus, the internal/external thing is plainly silly. BTW, not competitive??? watch in April for how Yalies are very aware (even if they pretend otherwise) who gets tapped for the Secret Societies and who does not–</p>

<p>Yale and Harvard are very different places with different types of people–but the cultual stuff of the above poster is–from again, not some counsellor but having lived it for 30 years–just not true–if anything it is vaguely racist. (BTW, while daughter of Tiger Mom is going to Harvard, Tiger Mom teaches at Yale…)</p>

<p>For all the talk of how different the 3 schools (HYP–and possibly 20+ or so other schools with similar high-achieving student bodies), the reality is that the types of professions represented, and the general social and professional circles one travels in after college is remarkably similar between the different alum populations.</p>

<p>More than one person on this thread had written to say that, in their view, Harvard isn’t exactly the warmest place filled with the nicest people in the world. I’m surprised at how much combativeness and defensiveness those observations have evoked on this thread. Basajaun, for example, wrote:

As someone with more than a few years at both H and Y, I’m with Basajaun. Not that my experience is that people at Harvard are mean, but that Basajaun has a right to be honest about her/his experiences at Harvard. True, those experiences were subjective and based on only a small sample from a larger universe – they might not be valid for someone other than Basajaun, or for a different sample of Harvard students. But Basajaun did not claim otherwise. </p>

<p>Basajaun is dealing with a question that’s hard for many cross-admits: how to pick one from several very good colleges. Based on personal experience, B says not Harvard. This might be good news for someone on the H waitlist who really wants in. I can’t see why anything other than defensiveness would cause people to argue with Basjaun’s honest statement of her/his reality.</p>

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<p>While I don’t doubt your perception of these particular people you met, I think you may be basing your decision about Harvard on a very limited universe. </p>

<p>Unless all of those students were Freshmen, some of them will probably be gone when you get there, and chances are that half of them may be gone after your first year. Some will probably quit, too.</p>

<p>Also, how many college students actually end up participating in the activities they are “certain” they will continue with in college? D1 loved Mock Trial in hs, but never looked once at it at H; there were just too many other new and exciting things to explore.</p>

<p>H certainly is not for everyone. The campuses of H,Y and S, feel very different, even though I agree with those who say the students are much the same. I think the different feel is determined by their geographical location (bustling, sophisticated college town vs. trapped-in-together by a gritty city vs. quiet, low key suburban area). Pick the one where you feel most comfortable. Good luck.</p>

<p>Gosh, Basjaun must be right because in my four years at Yale NOT once was anyone ever unfriendly-- We all held hands and sang songs around the campfires and gave each other daisy wreaths to wear in our hair. </p>

<p>Please, please, please go to Yale. You will not like the real world where you will meet nice people, friendly people, cold people, nasty people and people who will be mean to you. There are great people on the wait list who would love to be with these mean people.</p>

<p>D recently visited Yale and Harvard, but not during admitted student days. She really loves BOTH because of all the super-friendly people she’s met. In fact, she hasn’t met one unfriendly person at any school she’s visited. Is this amazing, or perception, or getting out of what one puts into an exchange? Certainly there are unfriendly, tired, irritable, and grouchy people everywhere, but often a smile and kind word brings out their best - or at least their better.</p>

<p>I’m glad D decided not to attend any admitted days (pretty much because she couldn’t) because I agree with a previous poster that she’s able to see the schools more typically. She did say that after emerging from the T she sat on a bench in Harvard Yard and got a little misty-eyed over the wonder all around her. A friend’s son, who is on his way to a tip-top residency, commented that it may all be Harvard-hype, but believes the hype is real.</p>

<p>“She did say that after emerging from the T she sat on a bench in Harvard Yard and got a little misty-eyed over the wonder all around her.”</p>

<p>Beautiful. This never went away for me. I still feel it every time I go back.</p>

<p>your daughter sounds like a wonderful person, getalifemom. </p>

<p>i’ve heard this again and again from those who’ve finally been admitted to HYPS – they arrive at Nassau Hall, Old Campus or Harvard Yard and can’t believe they’ve actually made it, after all the years of hard work. </p>

<p>it also sounds like she did the absolute right thing in going on her own (i.e., not on admitted student days), and in bringing such a positive attitude towards her adventures. life will work out well for her with that approach to new worlds. congratulations to her and to you!</p>

<p>Bay is right.

Etondad is kind of harsh. But we Princeton sorts are simple like that.;)</p>

<p>etondad-</p>

<p>I can’t speak for students in your day, but I can assure you that that the fraction of my classmates at Yale today who consider New Haven " a complete dump" and “cultural wasteland” today is quite small. For a city of 125,000, it actually offers quite a lot by U.S. standards. And, in fact, it is gaining population again and is the fastest growing city in New England. You have gone out of your way to dangle your Harvard legal and medical training before all of us on this forum; one would have hoped such a rarified education would equipped you to see the considerable development that has occurred over the past 30 years that cannot simply be dismissed as frill “around the edges.”</p>

<p>You may be aware, that an incredibly high proportion of Yalies become involved in projects that serve the New Haven community, something we are quite proud of. I myself tutor in afterschool programs, but virtually everyone I know works with kids or folks facing particular challenges. It may surprise you to find that some Yalies consider it one of the most important aspects of their education.</p>

<p>Now in prior posts you have regaled us with all the details of your children’s remarkable educations, and good on them that you have the knowledge and the means to sequester them in fabulous little enclaves like Eton, Exeter and Andover which certainly cannot be described as “dumps” and where they really will not be muched bothered by people who for someone seem to be condemned to live in “dumps.” The formerly “dumpy” parts of Cambridge have pretty much all been gentrified, so your son will not have to be bothered by dump-dwellers either as you were, poor thing, 30 years ago. See, it all works out.</p>

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<p>Like any other human being, I interact with “nice people, friendly people, cold people, nasty people, and people who will be mean to [me]” on a daily basis. I am perfectly capable of handling the “real world”.</p>

<p>I do not understand why, after I articulated the situation, you make a blanket insult that pertains less to what I said and more to the idea of me turning down Harvard for a school where I may feel more welcome. This doesn’t qualify as advice. You’re telling me to forfeit my acceptance (which I earned and still might accept) to waitlisted students just because I’ve expressed inhibitions that they have not…and I don’t understand the point of it. It’s not going to assist me in reaching a decision. I accept that you’re being somewhat “cold”/“nasty”/“mean”…and I’m just curious as to why. I’m not torn up over it. But it seems pointless in this situation.</p>

<p>You’d probably prefer for your son to be surrounded by the students you’ve met in the Waitlist thread over people like me, I’m guessing? But…there’s still a slight chance I will be present at Harvard to soil your son’s experience…</p>

<p>Bc your comments about people being “not nice” at one institution or another was just, to be plain, silly. There are all variety of people at any campus. Or anywhere on earth. College is not Disney World. Students are not nicer at Yale than Harvard-- there are same percentage of nice and not nice people everywhere (well, Caltech sophomores are as a rule sullen, but that is because of their core, which their administration is changing.)</p>

<p>I loved my years at Yale and hated when it was time to graduate, if you go there, or Stanford, where my wife were to college, you can have a great experience-- and the same can be said for almost anywhere. But don’t base your decision upon whether the people were nice to you. </p>

<p>I see far too many students in my counseling sessions who have the reality crash against some idealized fantasy and are depressed. Some then transfer to discover, that the same reality exists where they have transferred as well.</p>

<p>I recognize that my tone was harsh to you–too much so–and for that I am sorry. I was still fuming at the vaguely racist comments of a previous poster. </p>

<p>Where ever you decide to attend I’m sure can be a place where you will be happy and sad, nice and mean–in other words, a place where you can be a human, flawed as we all are. There are no bad choices for you to make.</p>

<p>In the end, these kids need to make a decision and it is much easier for some if they are able to find a flaw, no matter how small, in the college they do not choose. “They were mean to me”, “The neighboring town is sketch”, “It rained for two whole days!”, “The food sucked”, etc. may be the (somewhat juvenile) complaints that help kids like Basa (and my D) make their final decisions. Perhaps if they are able to convince themselves that the *other *college is somehow horrid, they won’t have any regrets later. I certainly hope that once my D makes her decision, she won’t ever look back with regret and I would imagine that Basa’s mom feels exactly the same way.</p>

<p>Posts 33 and 34 strike me as very sound and informed. I’ve met dozens and dozens of Harvard students in the past several years, taken a number of them out to dinner, and had several in our home. Without exception they have been incredibly nice and socially engaging. And if we wish to dispel other stereotypes, just about all of the young women have been attractive, virtually none of the men have been nerdy, and not a single student has been arrogant in any way. And yet I can assure you that somewhere on the Harvard campus (as on any other campus), all of these stereotypes could be reinforced by a random meeting with particular individuals.</p>

<p>Like gadad, I know many wonderful (not to mention spectacularly talented) people at Harvard. But this thread could easily give you the impression that there are also a goodly number of arrogant hostile ones as well. </p>

<p>A brief recapitulation:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Presumably a principal goal of pre-frosh weekends like Visitas is to help people make a judgment, from a weekend’s worth of experience, on which school is right for them.</p></li>
<li><p>Basajaun writes to say that s/he’s leaning away from Harvard because at Visitas the people s/he met in the activities s/he cares most about didn’t seem friendly or welcoming. </p></li>
<li><p>Various posters on this thread characterize Basajaun as judgmental, rude, silly, etc., sometimes serving up these judgments with substantial dollops of sarcasm (as in etondad’s “go to Yale” post).</p></li>
<li><p>So if you’re Basajaun, or another similarly-situated pre-frosh, what would you conclude about how warm and friendly Harvard people are?</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>But, various *other *posters indeed respected Basa’s misgivings and encouraged him/her to choose the college that has the best “fit”. I think *all *of the posters on this thread sincerely hope that Basa (and the other kids who are still undecided with just over a week to go!) finds what he/she is looking for.</p>

<p>I’m almost 100% positive I will be turning down Harvard for either Princeton or MIT. Ultimately, I was not impressed by Harvard’s engineering program and I disliked the campus as a whole (too spread out and interspersed with the city)</p>

<p>Basa – The whole point of visiting is to decide which choice feels right for you. Follow your instincts. Harvard is not for you (not for everyone). That’s fine. You have excellent alternatives. When D choose between Yale and Harvard, a very difficult choice, she thought she would be happier at Yale in her first year, maybe first 2 years because it felt more social. But she was concerned with how insular Yale would feel in the later years. She thought Harvard would stretch her the most as a person after 4 years even if it would be more intimidating freshman year and she loved Cambridge/Boston. She had no fear Harvard would feel too small or insular at the end. Good luck to you.</p>

<p>i know 2 people who are turning down harvard – one to go to stanford and one to go to yale. (i also know one person who’s choosing harvard over stanford.)</p>

<p>no matter how much people say “you can’t make a bad choice,” if you’re in this situation, you still need to make one. and, at the undergraduate level, all of these schools offer top notch academics. so when students are trying to choose, it makes sense that they’d look to other factors – one of which is social atmosphere. </p>

<p>good luck to all on last minute choices!</p>