Why are colleges using class rank in admissions?

Parents Forum
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<p>It is also the reason why many schools do not rank. They know that their top 10% may be an arbitrary cut-off. How can you compare 2 students with almost identical GPAs but one is science oriented and one is humanities oriented?</p>

<p>The schools know the way the admissions offices work. They are working to get more of their students into top schools. It is why I think that they are relying more and more on standardized scores in the admissions process. I suspect that over time more schools will require SAT IIs as a way to validate the class rank and GPA of its students.</p>

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<p>Many of the top high schools do not rank for just this reason. Of course this can also cause problems - I know of a kid who missed out on a scholarship with a top 10% requirement because his high school couldn't, or wouldn't provide his class rank.</p>

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<p>I don't get too worked up about it. It seems that it's a bigger factor in public schools and I do think it's information colleges like to have on schools they haven't dealt with. It is what it is, right? In a mediocre school, where only a handful of kids will gain acceptance to hyper-competitive schools, the Harvard candidate had better be at or near the top. A school like Milton Academy can send 10 kids to Harvard in a year - obviously each one can't have had the highest GPA (I imagine they don't rank anyway). </p>

<p>It would matter if it was the only criterion colleges used, but it's not. As for the scholarships that are awarded to top GPA or top 10 percent, it really is no different than the scholarship awarded to the McDonald's employee (I'm not losing sleep over the fact we won't qualify) or for the children of veterans or left handed oboist or speakers of Parseltongue. Scholarship committees and colleges are always on the look for ways to categorize and make their job somewhat easier. The trouble is, it's always a little wacky and people who are left out aren't happy.</p>

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<p>Because as a previous poster stated...it helps identify performers relative to the school/class they are in. This along with the school profile is as valuable as the GPA which is also used. We could also ask...why do colleges use the SAT (for things like merit aid). It's a one or two shot chance at getting a qualifying score when some students are darn hard workers who deserve to have their merit awarded (in jobs, isn't merit pay awarded based on PERFORMANCE...not a test??).</p>

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<p>Ameliapeabody notes,"Here is another twist. In the state of Washington, GPA's are not weighted, ever. So, a student at a public high school in the full IB diploma program will receive no extra gpa boost for honors level work. Same with AP classes. Students who take a much lighter course load are frequently ranked higher than the students in the most rigorous programs"</p>

<p>Response: I am also finding this situation in more and more colleges. Again, I don't understand why any colllege would do this. We were visiting two departments of art in several colleges who told us that they evaluate applicants based on numerical GPA and SATS and do NOT take course toughness into account that much except in deciding ties or for scholarships. They only thing that they do is to eliminate the gyms, and other non academic courses from the GPA and come up with their own modified GPA. </p>

<p>As to Xiggi, can you restate your argument? I wasn't sure I followed your thesis.</p>

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<p>My sons' school dropped ranking several years ago. As the top private school in our region, they felt that at 50% their kids topped the next school's 10%. I do not see, however, that it adversely affects any of the students in their application/scholarship processes. They seem to do just fine.</p>

<p>If other schools feel that their kids are being shortchanged, then they should just drop ranking too.</p>

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<p>I like the position that my kid's public HS on Long Island takes- they rank top 10% only. They felt that if you were in the top 10%, the ranking helps, and if you were not top ten, it wasn't necessary to be that specific. As I am the mom of 2- where d # 1 was ranked and d # 2 will not be ranked, I think this position has clearly been beneficial to my family. The HS is a very decent public HS, but does not have the name recognition of a magnet (like Bronx Science) or private HS. Most of the kids who were in the top 10 % with d # 1, were also Nat'l Merit Commended (or higher) AP with distiction (or whatever they call it) so their were other awards which would validate their top 10 % status. It may be purely coincidental, but we have been getting more kids into the Ivy's since our HS switched into this system It's been in affect for the past 4 years. Previously, everyone was ranked. Many other LI high schools do not rank. Maybe the adcoms appreciate knowing where a kid stands ( instead of a school where their are numerous valedictorians and 40 kids have a GPA of 4.0) so our school is being "rewarded" by being so direct with our kids standing. All I know in the past 2 years, we have gotten kids into HPY as well as the other Ivys. Up until 3 years ago, just a handful of kids got into U. Penn and Cornell. Bottom line, I like class ranking for top students. And please stop talking that this helps only poor minority communities for AA purposes. Ranking helps my very nice Long Island community too.</p>

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<p>Our high school was going to begin using decile reporting for class rank rather than specific number. They were going to continue to report val and sal. I support this decision. Very often, within a decile, student GPAs (and thus rank) are separated by .001 points or so. However, another parent went into the school and pitched a FIT. Apparently their child was ranked 3 and the parents just couldn't fathom that their child's "rank" would be the same (1st decile) as someone who was ranked 19 (class has 191 students). The GCs politely explained the school profile (which does include range of GPA's for the class both weighted and unweighted...rank is done using weighted GPA) but this parent was relentless. Last time we got DD's class rank it was NOT in deciles. The reality is that this #3 ranked kid is a VERY bright student, who had outstanding SAT scores and is taking an aggressive courseload. Her college acceptances look very bright regardless how the hs reports class rank.</p>

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<p>Actually, I was giving this whole situation some more thought based on some recent college tours. To use class rank as a major factor for both admission and scholarship is dubious at best and, at worse, outright insane. Kids don't take the same courses. Not only do they take differing courses but they take differings degrees of toughness. Even worse, most schools that take rank into account do not take course toughness into account. They simply use unweighted GPA in a number of cases. Again, I can't understand this.</p>

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<p>Our very large high school (~750 in each class) does take course difficulty into account in class rank. Honors classes are weighted 4.5 for an A and AP classes are weighted 5 for an A. Honors are offered in most academic subjects from 9th grade on, and it is possible to take as many as 9 AP courses during high school. At our school, the top 5% receives academic honors, and quite a few of these students will go on to a variety of excellent colleges, although less than 50% of the enitreclass will go on to any four year college. It would be very difficult or impossible to get into the top 10% without many honors classes, or the top 5% without many honors plus at least some AP classes. I think this is a fair approach for our school, although any numerical approach will have nuances which favor or penalize certain students, based on individual circumstances and choices. As I posted on the other thread, I think selective colleges are aware of the relative strength of the class at different high schools, so a higher percentage from a competitive private or public school will be viable candidate for admissoin than from a more average school like ours. I do see the difficulty for scholarship competitions or public universities which go strictly by class rank, and that is unfortunate for those students like Mootmom's son who attend very competitive high schools, and this is unfortunate for those students.</p>

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<p>Marny, I just sent your school's policy (about ranking the top 10% and decile for the rest) to our head of guidance. It seems like this is a worthy compromise that might actually benefit most students. I'm sure they will be "thrilled" to hear from me :)</p>

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<p>Curmudgeon - I was posting against interest, actually. Because we sent my daughter to a hippie school through 8th grade, she took no language and she took only Algebra 1 before high school. In the Bay Area, many kids enter high school with Language 1 under their belts and some kids take Geometry as well before high school. So although my daughter had an A in every class except one semester of PE where she got an A-, (school does not give A+'s), given weightings for AP she was lower than other kids. But, here's the kicker, our school doesn't rank!</p>

<p>Don't you owe me a beer or something?</p>

<p>On the other hand, since our outcome was positive, maybe I just am fine with anything right now so I am still not posting against interest. Save the beer for another day.</p>

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<p>


What colleges do it this way? I would sure like to know so we can avoid them. Every school we have visited with has stressed that the "transcript" (showing both grades AND the selection of the challenging courses offered by your school) is THE most important factor to them. We haven't stumbled on any yet that say class rank , regardless of class difficulty, is the criteria and I certainly would not want to. I would appreciate the names if you are comfortable giving them out.</p>

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<p>Our H.S. dropped ranking 4 years ago, and this year dropped deciles too. Only the top 5 students are announced, in alphabetical order though. I don't believe it affected the admissions process at all. We did not have any more Top-school-admissions than previous years, except maybe 2 students who each got accepted into multiple Ivies.</p>

<p>I do have 2 children for whom the decile system would be advantageous, and 1 who it would actually hurt.</p>

<p>I could be on both sides of the issue, except that I feel that it is not a deciding factor, and there is so much more to the admissions process than a rank or decile. Even in choosing between 2 students.</p>

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<p>Curmudgeon, there were several programs at different schools that did this. University of Cincinnati noted they don't take the toughness of courses into account in their school of Design, Art, Architecture and Planning. RISD uses unweighted gpa but gives a very slight nudge if there were mostly honors courses. University of Texas gives automatic admission to students in the top 10% regardless of course difficulty. With University of Florida, I think they automatically admit the top 5% regardless of course difficulty.</p>

<p>I also encountered other schools that either require a certain rank for scholarships ( regardless of course quality) or base their admission's policy on unweighted GPA without regard to course toughness. If this is important to you, I will post more schools that do this as I encounter them. As I was taking college tours, I found an uncomfortable number of schools that either don't take course toughness into account or use class rank as an important factor for either admission's decisions and/or scholarships.</p>

<p>Just as a side note, we had an admission's speaker at our high school note that, although many colleges want to see tougher types of courses, she recommends these courses ONLY IF you will do well in them. She herself said that getting a high GPA even in regular courses is more important than getting a mediocre GPA in all honors. I guess the answer is that if you are going for the golden ring in order to get into top schools, you had better get the ring ( do very well in those tougher courses, or it may hurt in admissions).</p>

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<p>Actually I think my kids' strength of schedule backed up with AP scores helped them more than their class rank. They fared much better with competitive college admissions than many ranked above them...those that didn't auto admit. My son said the Pomona adcom specifically asked him how many of the kids in his class were actually "competitive college bound" students. They viewed him in the context of the top 75 students only.</p>

<p>Our school is notorious for grade inflation. It's also notorious for offering a gazillion AP classes that are weighted quite heavily. (class averages are 95+ and they are weighted 1.3, so yes you can get 130 grade points for a 100 in an AP, which happens quite frequently.) We even have one class that was listed and weighted as an AP that just does not exist according to AP collegeboard. </p>

<p>Lots of kids take the classes, few take the exams, fewer pass them. AND, some students have managed to tweak the system by having paid extra curricular activities such as ballet count for all the unweighted fine arts, PE, and health. Or they pay to take dual classes at the community college so the grade doesn't go in. This is popular for students weak in English and History that don't want a B in that AP. (see note on average grades in APs above)</p>

<p>Generally the top ten students are those that tweaked the system the best. Their SATs are generally 200 points lower than the next set ranked 10-20. The AP scholars, National Merit etc...come from that 10-20 rank. This year was the first year in a while that we actually had two academic kids rise to the top, although there was still some tweaking. Generally this is not the case. The year prior, neither the val or sal took Physics or Calculus in order to preserve their GPA. This is what I mean by strength of schedule issues. It may auto admit you to UT, but it will not get you into a more selective school.</p>

<p>Add to that the dramatic changes in class size....1,200 start, there are about 900 by the end of the junior year, and less than 700 in April when they do the final class rank. Of those, about the top 200 have plans for some sort of higher education. Every year there are kids that think they will be top 10%--until they reclassify and rerank and discover that another 200 kids are out of the rank.</p>

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<p>"University of Texas gives automatic admission to students in the top 10% regardless of course difficulty."</p>

<p>It is true that they accept the transcript as gospel, and do not really analyze it for course difficulty of each school. </p>

<p>The system is based on giving automatic admission to the top of EACH high school. Most of the jockeying for a spot in the top 10% occurs at high schools that use heavy weighing systems. It is beased on beiing the best you can be in your individual environment. </p>

<p>Taxguy, as far as restating my thesis, it is simple:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Parents should investigate the HS in the area PRIOR to enetering the school. Knowing the way they grade and knwoing how successful the school is in sending graduate to the TYPE of school you will seek is important. This way you will minimize the "disappointment" in finding out that the grass is greener at a different school. Complaining AFTER the fact about unfair system is rather silly. </p></li>
<li><p>For selective schools, it would not mean a whole lot for a student ranked 45% at a tough HS to move to an easier school and end up ranked 9 or 10%. The story is a bit different for a student ranked in the top 20% who could become val or sal.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>Xiggi--don't you have to at least be on the "recommended" plan now for the top 10% to apply? Or did that fail? Not that recommended is all that strenuous, but it's better than minimum plan.</p>

<p>I do agree that you have to be the best in the context of where you are. My son had to layer on some APs that were simply a waste of his time, or sink like a brick in rank. </p>

<p>What would be most helpful when selecting a high school (if you are in that position) would be how their graduates fare at their given colleges. I know that our high school doesn't keep that data, or want to--it would be embarrassing. Again, the students that we do hear about in the local newspaper(dean's list/honor grad/college honor society etc...)tend not to be from those kids ranked 1-10.</p>

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<p>It would be ironic if adcoms are using rank <em>more,</em> since, as some repliers have noted & I will too, the trend in high schools is to rank <em>less</em> than previously. In our region, high -achieving h.s.'s such as mootmom's S's are not ranking simply because their profiles are similar to the school she describes, with percentage point differences so tiny as to be meaningless. This would be true for high-profile publics as well as privates. </p>

<p>My D's private h.s. has never ranked, but I think more for philosophical reasons than for practical implications. The way that the school deals with this when it comes to college apps, scholarship recs & other kinds of recognitions, is to compare students qualitatively (descriptively). That ends up being quite effective, in my view. There are many ways to indicate to a college or a scholarship committee who the truly "top" student is. (Regarding that part, I'll PM you.)</p>

<p>I'm no statistician, but I'm just wondering, taxguy, what evidence you have that this is an upward trend in college admissions. Is it just an impression? My sense is that it is no more a factor than it has ever been. I'm sure the committees appreciate that there are extremes in school profiles (high achieving high schools such as mootmom's S's & my D's, vs. low-rent public in low-performing State). If there is one student with a 3.25, and the average GPA is 2.5, I'm sure that one student is no automatic admit to an elite college. And that 3.25 without an Honors or AP component will not necessarily outweigh the record of student #13 at mootmom's S's h.s. College admissions appears to have become more complex & less formulaic -- with more kinds of factors considered & weighted. If there was an increasing concern for quantitative factors, I think you would also see more of an SAT emphasis in admissions, but at least judging from postings on CC, the admissions results do not bear out a greater interest in "numbers."</p>

<p>I think what the adcoms perhaps are more concerned about (than they used to be) is context. That is why a student has an edge now if First Generation to college, or high performance relative to wealth (not ethnicity necessarily), etc.</p>

<p>Last fall there was a student who posted on the CC student forums, who got accepted to at least HYPS (maybe others, too). He was the only outstanding student in an extremely low-performing public school where the culture was decidedly anti-academic & anti-achievement. (His screen name might be ohlookasquirrel.) He chose Stanford. I believe he was African American. But if so, would hardly call his own admissions the result of Affirmative Action in a racial sense, but rather the result of context.</p>

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<p>taxguy, the system in Texas is a little different than you think. UT or A+M doesn't refigure rank. The individual school certifies class rank in the top 10% by their own formula which may or may not include weighting. It's not the Uni making the call on who is or isn't top 10%.(It's the same way with the Texas Tuition Exemption for Valedictorians, one per school.) I believe California has a specified weighting formula. </p>

<p>Our particular district weights advanced, AP, and dual credit college courses. All of the top ranked kids at our district, are also the top kids on the SAT or ACT (with one exception I'm aware of, although there could be more). The top ten kids, historically kids 1-10 are light years ahead of the next ten in college acceptances, test scores, and most any other performance factor. This year seems to be no exception. I would guess this means our district is doing a pretty efficient job of ferreting out the top students and for that I am grateful. (The exception I mention has top SAT scores but lesser grades in equally challenging courses, although still in the top 10%)</p>

<p>D has had interviews or admissions conversations with reps from Rhodes, Furman, Centre, University of Mississippi Honors, Davidson, Emory, Hanover, DePauw, Rose-Hulman, Cornell College, Lake Forest, Grinnell, Drake, William Jewell, UPenn, Harvard, Georgetown, Duke, Earlham, Knox, Hendrix, Millsaps, Hamilton, Scripps, Allegheny, and Ursinus. At each of these schools strength of transcript (both grades and course selection) was given as the most important criteria. </p>

<p>I agree with you if it is your position that that is how it should be, but I disagree that very many schools would be impressed with a perfect GPA or rank as determined by a fluff schedule. I guess I'm thinking the adcoms at most selective schools are not that easily beguiled.</p>